Prostitution: Yes or No

[Serqet]

But we aren't able to regulate taxis either. Our government has pretty much shown that aren't that good at regulating anything. Why add more problems to the list? In theory the idea makes perfect sense. In reality it would just not work in this country.

I understand your perpective on victims. But at the same time they are making victims of themselves. They chose to get involved in the industry. Just like a drug addict chooses to do that hit. So why is this now our fault? We cannot be held accountable for other people's actions. They are fully aware of what they are getting into and we are the evil people because we don't condone it?

I understand people will do things regardless but by saying yes you may my child to everything we just open the door and the slippery slope of descent into moral decay begins.

 

[porn$tar]

Why add more problems to the list?

The problem is already there.

 

[cerebus]

Thats some pretty evil morality that you are describing. You would rather a woman got raped and had no recourse with justice?!?!!?!?!

No, of course not. I'm not saying that the current laws are perfect, or that the laws concerning the women themselves shouldn't be rethought. They definitely need to be given legal recourse. But offering protection to prostitutes who are exploited doesn't have to go together with sanctioning the entire trade.

But what happens when you decriminalise the trade is that not just the women but the exploiters - the pimps and the traffickers - are sanctioned as legitimate businessmen. That gives them much more freedom to exploit and damage the women involved.

In your article you spoke to a couple of prostitutes - ok, did you speak to ones who had become addicted to drugs? Did you speak to ones who had been in the trade for 10 years? Did you find ones who had been trafficked in from neighboring countries on false pretenses?

 

[w1z4rd]

But we aren't able to regulate taxis either. Our government has pretty much shown that aren't that good at regulating anything. Why add more problems to the list? In theory the idea makes perfect sense. In reality it would just not work in this country.

Change takes time. We have inherited a faulty system from a faulty government. Despite your beliefs, the taxi industry is regulated in its own way. Its not a great or even a good system.. but its getting more and more coherent

I understand your perpective on victims. But at the same time they are making victims of themselves. They chose to get involved in the industry.

So theyre guilty because some sleaze bag guy came along, had kids and then skipped the scene.. leaving the mother with no source of income, an in most cases with the working class.. no skills. Are you going to pay for those kids to go to school and eat? are you going to cover the bills of that woman who has nothing left to offer.. but wants her kids to survive?

Just like a drug addict chooses to do that hit.

The last three presidents of the USA all admitted to taking drugs.. guess politicians and prossies have more in common with each other than just fking us over.

So why is this now our fault?

Its our fault that we allow a system that creates victims like this to continue.

We cannot be held accountable for other people's actions. They are fully aware of what they are getting into and we are the evil people because we don't condone it?

You are accountable for your own actions and you and you are evil in my eyes if you want this industry to stay criminalized and to continue creating victims. If you dont like it.. or wanna do it.. DONT DO IT!!! But dont create victims by supporting an unjust system.

I understand people will do things regardless but by saying yes you may my child to everything we just open the door and the slippery slope of descent into moral decay begins.

Well hopefully you can be a better parent than the ones these woman had.

 

[porn$tar]

Shrugging and saying, "It's all your fault, you're not my problem", does nothing but alienate the person. Is this how you feel about HIV + people also? That they don't deserve help because it's their own fault? Jesus wept.

 

[w1z4rd]

No, of course not. I'm not saying that the current laws are perfect, or that the laws concerning the women themselves shouldn't be rethought. They definitely need to be given legal recourse. But offering protection to prostitutes who are exploited doesn't have to go together with sanctioning the entire trade.

But what happens when you decriminalise the trade is that not just the women but the exploiters - the pimps and the traffickers - are sanctioned as legitimate businessmen. That gives them much more freedom to exploit and damage the women involved.

Actually not. Completely wrong. By regulating it the woman that do get exploited can now get legal aid! They can form unions and protect themselves. As for the pimps and traffickers.. I imagine they`ll either be pushed out the industry or end up like the American prohabition booze bootleggers.

In your article you spoke to a couple of prostitutes - ok, did you speak to ones who had become addicted to drugs?

Several actually. Strangely enough when you have no legal recourse and you get raped a couple of times.. you dont see the world through the same eyes as before.

However. I have spoken to accountants, lawyers, telecoms experts, IT people, Sales people, COO`s, CEO`s, DJ`s, construction workers and loads of other industries where people do drugs as well.

Did you speak to ones who had been in the trade for 10 years?

Yup

Did you find ones who had been trafficked in from neighboring countries on false pretenses?

Yup... and theyre too scared to go to the cops. The cops extort them ALL the time.

 

[cerebus]

As for the pimps and traffickers.. I imagine they`ll either be pushed out the industry or end up like the American prohabition booze bootleggers.

Statistics that I've read show that this isn't the case at all. Where legal prostitution occurs, illegal prostitution also flourishes more than before (Sullivan and Jeffreys, 2001). Because the police then view prostitution generally with laxity, they tend not to enforce anyone who practices it. And conversely those pimps who were illegal simply move into the legal segment without any necessary change of activity. Child prostitution, clandestine brothels, street prostitutes - legalization seems to do very little to actually curb those activities.

Several actually. Strangely enough when you have no legal recourse and you get raped a couple of times.. you dont see the world through the same eyes as before.

But you didn't feel fit to publish their juicy soundbites in your article? I wonder why. Cherry picking much?

Again, I'm not saying that the women involved shouldn't be offered a much wider degree of protection than currently. There definitely needs to be a revision of current laws around prostitution so that we can do whatever is possible to safeguard the exploitation of those women.

 

[Gaz{M}]

No one answered my question about why it's illegal to pay for something you can give away for free. You just made a child slavery straw man non-argument.

Let me propose something here. I'm a single man or woman. I'm not particularily attractive. I'm introverted and don't have any success in dating. Or perhaps I'm a widow or widower, too old and tired to remarry or even bother with another relationship. Or maybe I'm a single business man in an exciting city. I'm tired after a hard day's work and would like to go out with a beautiful woman and sleep with her. Why is it so reprehensible to want to offer a professonal, regulated, legal, taxed industry to provide male/female sex workers for these types of people?

No matter what words you use, all i hear is "sex is evil" "sex is wrong" and "sex is a sin". Fine, if you believe that - DON'T USE SEX WORKERS. Stop imposing your morals on everyone else.

 

[Ecco]

Legalize it. They should also pay tax!

 

[alloytoo]

Against it!

Prostitutes wont want to go for forced medical check-ups or pay tax. So you'll still have it happening underground. And i feel if we legalise prositutition then where does it end? It is not acceptable so it shouldn't be legal. Next drugs will be legal and we will just decay as a society.

ummm

It is already 'underground', largely because it's 'underground', hence a desire to bring it 'above ground'.

 

[alloytoo]

I'm not saying they don't. But by legalising it you are making it okay and it's not! It will just lead to more and more.

Why isn't it ok? (legalities aside?)

 

[alloytoo]

This is exactly what is wrong with the world today. We seem to have lost sight of our morals.

What morals are those?

So okay let's live in a world full of sex and drugs and alcohol. Wooohooo sounds like one helluva party!!

You forgot Rock and Roll

 

[w1z4rd]

Statistics that I've read show that this isn't the case at all. Where legal prostitution occurs, illegal prostitution also flourishes more than before (Sullivan and Jeffreys, 2001). Because the police then view prostitution generally with laxity, they tend not to enforce anyone who practices it. And conversely those pimps who were illegal simply move into the legal segment without any necessary change of activity.

Could you link to your study?

For real life stats about actually important issues around the situation please check out:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/12/22/185323/82
http://liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html
http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html

(please read those link cerebus... they actually contain valid information that put your "stats" in perspective)

Child prostitution, clandestine brothels, street prostitutes - legalization seems to do very little to actually curb those activities.

Yeah, just like booze regulation has not stopped Shebeens, Pedophillia and wife beatings. Child prostitution is disgusting but I really hope they concentrate arresting the people who hire the child prostitutes than arresting the child prostitutes.

But you didn't feel fit to publish their juicy soundbites in your article? I wonder why. Cherry picking much?

No not at all... erm.. I understood their situation better than you do and I totally understand why they do drugs when you look through the world they do. However, I still see their usage as a lower moral problem than those created by the criminalization of the industry.

Again, I'm not saying that the women involved shouldn't be offered a much wider degree of protection than currently. There definitely needs to be a revision of current laws around prostitution so that we can do whatever is possible to safeguard the exploitation of those women.

Listen to them then. Help them. Dont support an environment that leads to them being victims.

 

[Pitbull]

Morals aside, how does prostitution benefit society ?

- It does not, never will and never has.

The arguement put forward:
But it has always existed.

- Just like murder, theft, rape & abuse

Whorehouses are cesspools of disease, anguish and economic desperation.

The young whore today, smiles when she/he shows off her/his designer clothes, shades and expensive perfumes, but soon the youth and greed turns into anguish and desperation to get out of 'the trade'.

It's not about making a natural phenomena like sex a crime, it's a crime to make a natural phenomena like sex an economic commodity of which the benefits are reaped by a minority in society but which also causes extreme anguish to an innocent minority ie: the lifepartner/ divorce , broken home, broken children, infected innocent partners.

No one answered my question about why it's illegal to pay for something you can give away for free. You just made a child slavery straw man non-argument.

Let me propose something here. I'm a single man or woman. I'm not particularily attractive. I'm introverted and don't have any success in dating. Or perhaps I'm a widow or widower, too old and tired to remarry or even bother with another relationship. Or maybe I'm a single business man in an exciting city. I'm tired after a hard day's work and would like to go out with a beautiful woman and sleep with her. Why is it so reprehensible to want to offer a professonal, regulated, legal, taxed industry to provide male/female sex workers for these types of people?

No matter what words you use, all i hear is "sex is evil" "sex is wrong" and "sex is a sin". Fine, if you believe that - DON'T USE SEX WORKERS. Stop imposing your morals on everyone else.

I think wrathex said it best.

It's not about morals, and I doubt it has even been about morals. Remember and I'm sure Wizard wil agree on this, the majority of the woamn are in this mess purely because of desperation. Sure you get the ones who like what they are doing I'm not saying they don't. But the majority do not. Imagine you need to nail 300 KG woman, ugly as hell never had a bath in weeks. Would you enjoy that ?

These woman do it because of a few factors

1. They are forced to by a drug dealer providing them with drugs
2. They have no other means of getting themselves fed.
3. They where driven there due to mental abuse.
4. They where brought to SA under flase pretences and are now stuck here with no papers and any way of getting out of it.

5. Are in it for the money. (The few that actually enjoy it)

Making it legal will only make the above problems even worse. Police will not just welcome them with open arms because it's legal now.....

 

[Mila]

Oke we know how our legal system works with rape....

Say we legalise this.
Sex worker gets raped, but customer leaves money.

How do you prove this was rape? Witnesses?

 

[w1z4rd]

Oke we know how our legal system works with rape....

Say we legalise this.
Sex worker gets raped, but customer leaves money.

How do you prove this was rape? Witnesses?

Say you get raped. Person (someone you kinda know) doesnt leave money... How do you prove this with no witnesses?

In both cases the perp wore a condom.

 

[Pitbull]

Oke we know how our legal system works with rape....

Say we legalise this.
Sex worker gets raped, but customer leaves money.

How do you prove this was rape? Witnesses?

Very good point.

Doesn't need to be a prostitute, a normal woman is raped and the attacker leaves money, so in court he can claim she sold him sex. How do you disprove his defence ? I mean Selling sex would them be legal

 

[Nocturnity]

For it. Legalize prostitution. People who object on moral grounds, do you also oppose gay marriages? Are swingers evil people? Get off your high horses. Morality in general is defined by the way you were brought up which is in turn defined by ancient religious beliefs. Ridiculous. Who are you to judge the deeds of another and what puts you above them?

Personally, I wouldn't use a prostitute but I think people should have the choice, just like I believe people should have the right to choose their religion. Imagine if Christianity was outlawed because of its morals.

 

[w1z4rd]

Im leaving this thread now.. Ive said what I wanted to say. Ill just feel sick and disgusted by reading more of the replies from the religious mykkk totalitarian right.

Ill say it one last time, I would prefer a thousands crack ho prossies in my community to one person that would allow a system that turns them into rape victims (with no recourse for justice) to exist.

Theyre better people.

 

[Pitbull]

Wizard, don't try and play the religion card.

This is not the section for it pls. We're talking about the society as a whole and how this will effect it. No one said anything about religion.

Edit: sorry I missed the rape part.

You are aware that there is prostitues that won Rape cases, one included 2 policemen. They can still be raped and have their case heard