Question regarding Islam

[JCSM]

many self proclaimed Atheists (and a couple I know) have acknowledged that after studying/reading different faiths' "handbooks" the only book making any sense is the ....Bible!
And no - Christians do not not pray to the same god as the Muslims.

 

[undesign]

many self proclaimed Atheists (and a couple I know) have acknowledged that after studying/reading different faiths' "handbooks" the only book making any sense is the ....Bible!
And no - Christians do not not pray to the same god as the Muslims.

Well, statistically they probably come from predominantly Christian backgrounds/upbringing.

BTW, what does your nick stand for?

 

[JCSM]

Well, statistically they probably come from predominantly Christian backgrounds/upbringing.

BTW, what does your nick stand for?

Being a Christian myself I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God as our Lord and Savior, the Holy Ghost and God the Father - together they are one - God
The Muslims believe Jesus was merely a prophet in the flesh - therefor we're not praying to the same god

Jesus Christ saved me.

 

[battletoad]

Christianity - Sun worship
Islam - Moon worship

 

[undesign]

Being a Christian myself I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God as our Lord and Savior, the Holy Ghost and God the Father - together they are one - God
The Muslims believe Jesus was merely a prophet in the flesh - therefor we're not praying to the same god.

Huh? I was trying to point out the possible statistical anomaly in claiming many atheists proclaim the bible to be the only holy book that makes sense. Not to mention the word "many" you used.

Jesus Christ saved me

Cool. Thought so, just wanted to check.

 

[JCSM]

Huh? I was trying to point out the possible statistical anomaly in claiming many atheists proclaim the bible to be the only holy book that makes sense. Not to mention the word "many" you used.



Cool. Thought so, just wanted to check.

my mistake for misinterpretation!

 

[smb3]

Nah, in this scenario they stay as they are. No changing of beliefs for either individual. Still, i gather that there are believers and then there are BELIEVERS.



Hope you live up to your standards when considering the Uthman Recension. Can't find the page I'm looking for, but this is a start.



The bold part is an assumption. Nowhere has Mohammed ever said the Bible/Torah was changed in any way whatsoever. There is however a passage pertaining to Mohammed criticising a bunch of jews of corrupting their scripture, but afaik there is consensus that he was criticising their corruption of the understanding of some verses rather than the corruption of the very verses themselves. When it dawned upon Muslim scholars that there were contradictions between the Quran and the Bible, some of them explained it away by using this verse in the Quran to claim that the Bible was corrupted. Also, none of the contemporaries of Mohammed ever thought of the Bible as corrupted; among others these included the first caliphs and his christian uncle who took down verses. This "corruption" business came on 100 years afterwards. And the coup de grace: The vaticanus codex. Has been the same since 350 AD or roundabouts, before Islam even came along. So altho Mohammed may have been illiterate, it wouldn't be too far fetched to say he had a pretty good idea what was going on in the Bible, yet as stated before, he never said it was corrupted (also see verse where Mohammed holds high reverence for the Torah).

Actually you might be correct in the bible not being changed during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad *edit* not quite since there are people that believed in the trinity during those times, which is where muslims and christians start differentiating . In fact, the person that determined that Muhamad was a prophet of the muslims was a christian man who believed in the original bible himself. If you read through the history a bit, the Prophet Muhamad met a man named Waraqa bin Nawfal (a christian priest) and he was the man that identified him as the final prophet of Allah (which i use instead of god since the word god is abused alot by people) along with the seal of the prophets which indicated that he was the final prophet. I am also pretty much convinced that the original bible also speaks about the coming of a final prophet which is of course Muhamad, even though i can't prove this since i do not have an original bible of those times.

I do not think that the muslim scholars would "explain away" the original teachings of the bible in a negative way though. Reason being that the quran is the final book of Allah and the original bible which muslims call the Injeel is one that supports almost the same teachings as Islam (probably the exact same teachings since muslims have to believe in all the holy books revealed by Allah to man). It is also important to note that Islam cannot be the same as Christianity in this respect since we are dealing with two holy scriptures and the Quran is thought to be a continuation of the original bible.

So where muslims and christians start to differ is where the christians start believing that Jesus (Isa for muslims) is a god and that there is a trinity involved (i'm not going to speak alot on this since i know nothing about christianity and i dont want to offend anybody). There is probably also differences in our dress as well as some of our religious practices (like muslims pray 5 times a day, and fast for 30 days; things like that).

The difference between now and then is that the Quran is still preserved whereas the bible is now considered corrupted only because priests (or whatever respectful name is appropriate) decided to alter it (probably for the times). Personally i do not approve of this since i feel that man can never have the ability to change the word of Allah (God); and that jurispudence for the current times should be dealt with seperately whilst preserving the original scripture of Allah (God) for the later generations, but that's my personal opinion and it might offend so i apologize if you find it offensive.

So muslims should actually be tolerant towards christians and the same way around since we share the same history together (although different accounts of it but its the same history nonetheless) ... which is totally off topic of the original thread but extremists exists in all religions, percentages doesnt matter actually since the loudest voices get the attention which unfortunately is the extremists who are probably only focussing on one or two things about islam to a very extreme level ... how sad it is that we can't get along peacefully as muslim, christians and jews (along with other reliigions that i do not know the names of).

 

[alloytoo]

Actually you might be correct in the bible not being changed during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad *edit* not quite since there are people that believed in the trinity during those times, which is where muslims and christians start differentiating . In fact, the person that determined that Muhamad was a prophet of the muslims was a christian man who believed in the original bible himself. If you read through the history a bit, the Prophet Muhamad met a man named Waraqa bin Nawfal (a christian priest) and he was the man that identified him as the final prophet of Allah (which i use instead of god since the word god is abused alot by people) along with the seal of the prophets which indicated that he was the final prophet. I am also pretty much convinced that the original bible also speaks about the coming of a final prophet which is of course Muhamad, even though i can't prove this since i do not have an original bible of those times.

I do not think that the muslim scholars would "explain away" the original teachings of the bible in a negative way though. Reason being that the quran is the final book of Allah and the original bible which muslims call the Injeel is one that supports almost the same teachings as Islam (probably the exact same teachings since muslims have to believe in all the holy books revealed by Allah to man). It is also important to note that Islam cannot be the same as Christianity in this respect since we are dealing with two holy scriptures and the Quran is thought to be a continuation of the original bible.

So where muslims and christians start to differ is where the christians start believing that Jesus (Isa for muslims) is a god and that there is a trinity involved (i'm not going to speak alot on this since i know nothing about christianity and i dont want to offend anybody). There is probably also differences in our dress as well as some of our religious practices (like muslims pray 5 times a day, and fast for 30 days; things like that).

The difference between now and then is that the Quran is still preserved whereas the bible is now considered corrupted only because priests (or whatever respectful name is appropriate) decided to alter it (probably for the times). Personally i do not approve of this since i feel that man can never have the ability to change the word of Allah (God); and that jurispudence for the current times should be dealt with seperately whilst preserving the original scripture of Allah (God) for the later generations, but that's my personal opinion and it might offend so i apologize if you find it offensive.

So muslims should actually be tolerant towards christians and the same way around since we share the same history together (although different accounts of it but its the same history nonetheless) ... which is totally off topic of the original thread but extremists exists in all religions, percentages doesnt matter actually since the loudest voices get the attention which unfortunately is the extremists who are probably only focussing on one or two things about islam to a very extreme level ... how sad it is that we can't get along peacefully as muslim, christians and jews (along with other reliigions that i do not know the names of).

Strictly speaking the Koran is merely a corruption of the bible.

Matthew 7:15-20 (New International Version)

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 

[DigitalSoldier]

many self proclaimed Atheists (and a couple I know) have acknowledged that after studying/reading different faiths' "handbooks" the only book making any sense is the ....Bible!
And no - Christians do not not pray to the same god as the Muslims.

strange... when I read the bible it did not really make sense to me as A LOT of the stuff in the bible books contradict other books in the bible.

 

[JCSM]

strange... when I read the bible it did not really make sense to me as A LOT of the stuff in the bible books contradict other books in the bible.

explain

 

[Frankie]

Strictly speaking the Koran is merely a corruption of the bible.

Matthew 7:15-20 (New International Version)

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Are you suggesting Mohammad was a false prophet?
It's quite crafty of him to declare that he is the ultimate final prophet and there won't be another after him !

Mohammed claimed to be Allah's last prophet and that the Koran was Allah's last book.

 

[alloytoo]

Are you suggesting Mohammad was a false prophet?
It's quite crafty of him to declare that he is the ultimate final prophet and there won't be another after him !

Mohammed claimed to be Allah's last prophet and that the Koran was Allah's last book.

If you follow strict christian doctrine, yes. Matt and the boys predicted him.

"They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves" does describe Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah doesn't it?

 

[DigitalSoldier]

explain

The bible is full of contradictions.

God creates man then animals
(Genesis 2:7, 2:19)

God creates animals then man
(Genesis 1:24-27)

Men have seen god
(Genesis 32:30, Numbers 14:14)

No man has seen god
(John 1:18)

After feeding 5000, Jesus went to Gennesaret
(Mark 6:53)

After feeding 5000, Jesus went to Capernaum
(John 6:24-5)

Satan took Jesus to Temple then Mountain
(Matthew 4:5-8)

Satan too Jesus to Mountain then Temple
(Luke 4:5-9)

 

[smb3]

If you follow strict christian doctrine, yes. Matt and the boys predicted him.

"They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves" does describe Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah doesn't it?

There is a contradiction in your statement though ... you say that under strict christian doctrine that Muhamad as a prophet is predicted .... yet in matthew you seem to indicate that Muhammad is a false prophet ... so who is correct? strict christian doctrine or matthew?

Additionally, the matthew version of the bible is sort of edited by man ... so how do you know that the verse that you quoted was one that wasn't "man made"??

 

[alloytoo]

There is a contradiction in your statement though ... you say that under strict christian doctrine that Muhamad as a prophet is predicted

I didn't say that, is this an example of Taqiyya?

.... yet in matthew you seem to indicate that Muhammad is a false prophet ... so who is correct? strict christian doctrine or matthew?

Matthew is Christian doctrine, are you trying to deliberately obfuscate the issue?

Additionally, the matthew version of the bible is sort of edited by man ... so how do you know that the verse that you quoted was one that wasn't "man made"??

How do you know Mohammed didn't lie through his teeth?

Here's a newsflash for you: They're all "man made".

 

[DigitalSoldier]

@smb, from what I understand, under strict christian doctorine mohammad as a false prophet(along with all others) were predicted.

Sent from my HTC Desire using MyBroadband Android App

 

[wise_guy]

John 14:15-16,15:26-27,16:5-8,16:12-14 of the Bible says that Jesus himself predicted the arrival of Muhammed(pbuh) as the final 'comforter' and law giver.

 

[alloytoo]

John 14:15-16,15:26-27,16:5-8,16:12-14 of the Bible says that Jesus himself predicted the arrival of Muhammed(pbuh) as the final 'comforter' and law giver.

Another example of Taqiyya?

John 14:15-18

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 15:26-27

26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:5-15 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 “Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

The irony hurts, using passages which affirm Christ's divinity to "support" your view.

Aside: I must say I'm bitterly disappointed in the Christians on this forum.

 

[Who Me]

John 14:15-16,15:26-27,16:5-8,16:12-14 of the Bible says that Jesus himself predicted the arrival of Muhammed(pbuh) as the final 'comforter' and law giver.

Typical of islam

The referance is not refering to a man but rather to the Holy Ghost
(Paraclete, Comforter (L. Consolator; Greek parakletos), an appellation of the Holy Ghost)

This is a result of Muhamads imperfect understanding of the christain faith

 

[wise_guy]

@who me.Which is more plausable-A soul meaning a man or a ghost.