Racial Classification

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Orangeman said:
If only fifty-something percent of white people, over the age of 35 or more, were in favor of apartheid, why now, do all white people, including white children or those under 35 years (2007-1990=17 + age of reason say, 18= 35) have to suffer through these profiling and BEE stuff.
Surely, you will not throw a person in jail for what their parents have done.
Anyone answer?
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How axactly are you White people suffering through BEE stuff? Getting a black partner so that you can get contracts is not suffering...
All those who do not support BEE are racist to the core. They just have to admit it that all they want is to maintain the priviledge they had under Apartheid.
Initiatives like the MTN discount share scheme aimed at encouraging black investment are labelled racist, why? Is it because you don't want black people in the JSE?

BEE/AA is not punishment but it is redistribution of the economy that is skewed in favour of one group.
 
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Syndyre said:
Why should you be forced to have a partner?
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A good point Syndyre. There are also many very successfull one man black owned businesses around yet there is no law stipulating that they have to bring in a previously disadvantaged partner.
 
Bageloo said:
How axactly are you White people suffering through BEE stuff? Getting a black partner so that you can get contracts is not suffering...
All those who do not support BEE are racist to the core. They just have to admit it that all they want is to maintain the priviledge they had under Apartheid.
Initiatives like the MTN discount share scheme aimed at encouraging black investment are labelled racist, why? Is it because you don't want black people in the JSE?

BEE/AA is not punishment but it is redistribution of the economy that is skewed in favour of one group.
Click to expand...
Dont be ignorant and insulting - there are plenty of reasons why someone might be against BEE including the freedom to choose who you want to partner with.

Check out how skewed the redistribution. The masses arent benefiting any more than they would without BEE as only a select few are reaping the rewards handed to them.
 
blonde one said:
A good point Syndyre. There are also many very successfull one man black owned businesses around yet there is no law stipulating that they have to bring in a previously disadvantaged partner.
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If they are black owned then they are 100% previously diadvantaged...
Can you explain again how is getting a black partner suffering ?
Don't both parties benefit?
 
The major problem with BEE is that in many cases people that aren't qualified to handle the BEE jobs/contracts are still handed those contracts and as a result a sloppy job is done.

What SHOULD happen is that the previously disadvantaged should be given a quality education rather than just having jobs handed to them. Bageloo, the forumites here have gripes because prominent positions are being handed to people that don't necessarily deserve those positions. Do you agree with that?
 
Let's take your post point by point...
Bageloo said:
How axactly are you White people suffering through BEE stuff? Getting a black partner so that you can get contracts is not suffering...
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I am running a one-man company, and do not have enough work to sustain myself and a partner. So who is supposed to pay this partner? Is the government going to do it? Or am I supposed to get a "black" partner who is just a name on the letter head? Thus committing fraud?

Bageloo said:
All those who do not support BEE are racist to the core. They just have to admit it that all they want is to maintain the priviledge they had under Apartheid.
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This is blatant, shameless lying, since you do not know me, nor my view on the world, nor my circumstances!

Bageloo said:
Initiatives like the MTN discount share scheme aimed at encouraging black investment are labelled racist, why? Is it because you don't want black people in the JSE?
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Discounting shares is improper business dealing: selling a public company at a discount to only a certain portion of the public! BS! If black people want to deal on the JSE, they should pay what I pay...

Bageloo said:
BEE/AA is not punishment but it is redistribution of the economy that is skewed in favour of one group.
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And is now creating an extremely wealthy black elite, while the majority of the people do not benefit at all!

All in all, you just prove your own racist intentions and outlook on life! :rolleyes:
 
bwana said:
Dont be ignorant and insulting - there are plenty of reasons why someone might be against BEE including the freedom to choose who you want to partner with.

Check out how skewed the redistribution. The masses arent benefiting any more than they would without BEE as only a select few are reaping the rewards handed to them.
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I was not insulting but was stating my opinion. If you find it insulting then thousand apologies.
You can partner with whoever you want but don't expect to participate in BEE dealings if you are not BEE compliant.
There is no proof that the masses aren't benefitting anymore than they would without BEE. You just have to look at the many new middle class blacks to see that BEE and AA are working. The redistribution will of course benefit those that are better placed to take advantage of the opportunities given. Not every black person can take advantage of the MTN discounted shares but many will for the first time get an opportunity to own blue chip shares.
 
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Bageloo said:
If they are black owned then they are 100% previously diadvantaged...
Can you explain again how is getting a black partner suffering ?
Don't both parties benefit?
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The way I see it is that if I was in business and needed a partner I should be able to choose the best partner for the job, be they black, white, male, female, whatever. If I don't need a partner then I don't get one, if I do then any sensible business person is going to choose the most suitable partner, regardless of race. Its the free market. So why force the race issue?
 
Bageloo said:
Is it because you don't want black people in the JSE?
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Now that is one idiotic statement..

Anyway back to the point....

umm Racial Classification?

BEE is a nice idea which has been hijacked by the rich and powerful, one of the people who has received the most money from BEE is white.

I have a white family friend who is earning money now advising corporates on BEE...

It's a farce....

Saying that however I can easily see why the government needs to force certain companies to comply. One of the large corporates that I have worked at still to this day goes out of it's way to stop black people having any power.

If a black person is elected to a board there will always be two other whites elected at the same time to keep the standing.

I personally know one black guy who managed to fight his way into a management position only to have that position made redundant in a re-shaping...

It was blatantly racist and the managers where disciplined for it, yet it still continues...
 
feo said:
The major problem with BEE is that in many cases people that aren't qualified to handle the BEE jobs/contracts are still handed those contracts and as a result a sloppy job is done.

What SHOULD happen is that the previously disadvantaged should be given a quality education rather than just having jobs handed to them. Bageloo, the forumites here have gripes because prominent positions are being handed to people that don't necessarily deserve those positions. Do you agree with that?
Click to expand...

If you are talking about gvt then I can't disagree but in the private sector nobody gets a job they don't deserve. One white chap, an IT technician was saying that we blacks are being payed more just because we are black and I asked him how many years experience he has and he said 3 and I have 6. I asked him what degree he holds and he only has a certificate from varsity college and I have a BSC honours in IT. He recently applied for a simmilar job to mine and he admittd later that he found himself out of his depth as far as the interview questions went. It was the same interview I went through to get my job. He has hopefully realised that he is a good technician but he is not yet ready to be a manager or consultant for that matter.
A lot of this nonsense about people getting jobs they don't deserve is purely based on racial perception and stereotype.
 
Bageloo said:
If you are talking about gvt then I can't disagree but in the private sector nobody gets a job they don't deserve. One white chap, an IT technician was saying that we blacks are being payed more just because we are black and I asked him how many years experience he has and he said 3 and I have 6. I asked him what degree he holds and he only has a certificate from varsity college and I have a BSC honours in IT. He recently applied for a simmilar job to mine and he admittd later that he found himself out of his depth as far as the interview questions went. It was the same interview I went through to get my job. He has hopefully realised that he is a good technician but he is not yet ready to be a manager or consultant for that matter.
A lot of this nonsense about people getting jobs they don't deserve is purely based on racial perception and stereotype.
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Well I'll admit I don't have first hand experience when it comes to the job situation so I'm speaking based on the general comments I've heard about BEE, but there is a pretty big consensus that people that deserve jobs more than another are not getting the jobs simply because of skin colour, maybe that's false, maybe it's true I don't know.

I agree with Gavin's point above that BEE is essentially a good idea that's been flipped for financial benefit. It's simply not being implemented properly.
 
Syndyre said:
The way I see it is that if I was in business and needed a partner I should be able to choose the best partner for the job, be they black, white, male, female, whatever. If I don't need a partner then I don't get one, if I do then any sensible business person is going to choose the most suitable partner, regardless of race. Its the free market. So why force the race issue?
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It's not yet a free market. It has never been a free market for ages. Why do you suddenly think that it's possible to operate a free market where none of the prerequisite conditions exist?
 
Just for the record: Capitalism is NOT a free market! It is a society where the big corporates rule! :( And unfortunately we have to try and live with it... ;)
 
GavinMannion said:
Now that is one idiotic statement..

Anyway back to the point....

umm Racial Classification?

BEE is a nice idea which has been hijacked by the rich and powerful, one of the people who has received the most money from BEE is white.

I have a white family friend who is earning money now advising corporates on BEE...

It's a farce....

Saying that however I can easily see why the government needs to force certain companies to comply. One of the large corporates that I have worked at still to this day goes out of it's way to stop black people having any power.

If a black person is elected to a board there will always be two other whites elected at the same time to keep the standing.

I personally know one black guy who managed to fight his way into a management position only to have that position made redundant in a re-shaping...

It was blatantly racist and the managers where disciplined for it, yet it still continues...
Click to expand...

Then white people should not see it as suffering as oppotunities are open to all. It is not a farce, it just proves that the whites that are willing to accept the principles of BEE stand to benefit just as much.
 
Bageloo said:
It's not yet a free market. It has never been a free market for ages. Why do you suddenly think that it's possible to operate a free market where none of the prerequisite conditions exist?
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I don't think BEE/AA is going to assist in the creation of a free market but anyway. Gavin gave an example of blatantly racist practice that should clearly be stopped and made illegal, what I'd advocate is true equality where people are considered on their merits rather than their skin colour.
 
Bageloo said:
.
All those who do not support BEE are racist to the core. They just have to admit it that all they want is to maintain the priviledge they had under Apartheid.
Click to expand...

You are just showing your own lack of thought on this subject. There is one good reason that the MTN initiative in particular is wrong that has nothing to with race and that is because it only benefits those who have already benefited from empowerment. If you can afford to scrape together two grand on short notice to buy shares then you are no worse off than I am so why do you need uplifting? What about poor people for whom two thousand rand is a huge sum? Those are the ones who need uplifting.
I'm not saying that middle class blacks shouldn't be given special opportunities to create wealth which benefits everyone by creating jobs for people who don't have any, but the MTN fiasco is just giving money to people who are already better off than the majority of people.

BEE/AA is not punishment but it is redistribution of the economy that is skewed in favour of one group.
Click to expand...

Yes that group is middle to upper class blacks who are already empowered and are now so blinded by their own greed and sense of entitlement that they couldn't give a flying fcck that the free wealth being handed to them should be going towards uplifting and empowering people who desperately need it.

To add insult to injury you label anyone who questions this sick scenario as racist.

I have no problem with BEE. The MTN initiative and others of its kind are not about empowerment its all about making the rich blacks richer, which would be fine if the poor masses had been raised to your economic level and it was just a case of lifting some blacks into the top five percent.
 
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