Rick Perry

[RanzB]

Anyway, back on topic:

The gay Republican group Log Cabin Republicans released a statement condemning the spot -- "Governor Perry is running to be Commander-in-Chief, not Theocrat-in-Chief," said R. Clarke Cooper, the group's executive director -- but perhaps a more effective riposte came in the form of the Tumblr "Rick Perry's Unpopular Opinions." The satirical site turned Perry's walk in the ad into a meme and added other statements it considers equally culturally out of it, such as "Katy Perry is better than Lady Gaga" and "Friday is a fantastic song," to the image of him walking.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Ok. So you're saying that the US government should use the tax money of all their tax paying citizens to support the religious practices of all the different type of religions at a US public school? Can you imagine how much this will cost?

Remember, if you just send out the children who are not of the majority religion you are effectively favouring the majority religion. And this is prohibited by the US constitution.

Are you saying it costs a lot of money to give kids some time to sing a few song and pray once a week during assembly?

And that the government of the united states has been violation this aspect of their constitution for the last couple hundred years?

Remember, i am not saying they should favor the biggest religion of the nation, i am saying they should favor no religion and let communities decide how they want to structure the few minutes. Also, no one is told to leave, they are given the option, which keeps it perfectly fair.

 

[noxibox]

Perry's not just a religious nutter, he's one of those crazy people who believe in some past golden age. He has no improved future to offer and so talks about returning to glory days that never existed.

Convenient for you, but not fine for those who have these beliefs. A few minutes a couple times a week will hurt no one. Its called tolerance.

There is no need for this to be done during any official assembly unless the goal is to force the prayer on everyone. I don't care if the majority of the community are heroin users, that doesn't entitle them to shoot up in front of children who do not partake in an attempt to either get those children hooked or open them to being ostracised.

It doesn't need to be fair, we are talking a few minutes here, people will survive, nobody will get flogged.

Not yet.

Your view is painfully PC, yes, that same PC attitude i suspect you don't like when you see it.

Actually yours is PC. That's what kowtowing to this Christian whining is. Tell them to organise a prayer meeting during lunch or before school if they wish and let them use one of the classrooms. If they want a group prayer involving the whole school tell them to go nail themselves to the nearest tree.

I never cease to be amazed at the total disrespect these Christian groups have for the US and the ideals upon which it was founded.

Who demands no prayer in schools? As far as I understand it you're welcome to pray in your own personal capacity, just no officially recognised prayer participated in by the school is all. The school must at all times remain irreligious in order to treat everyone equally regardless of religion.

It's curious that not being able to impose prayer on everyone upsets the Christian vocal minority so much.

Nobody is saying the government should demand pray in all school, they just shouldn't demand no prayer in schools. Forcing either is wrong. Let each school within each community decide for themselves.

Forcing is exactly the goal of the religious though.

No it comes down to not creating any rules that enforce behaviour along religious lines. That basically equates to forcing your religion into the lives of those that don't practice it. That is an infringement on human rights.

In reality, in spite of their near constant whining, vocal Christians do still hold a huge influence over schools. They only lock on this prayer thing because it gives them something to complain about and fits in nicely with the persecution complex aspect of their religion.

 

[Rkootknir]

The US constitution doesn't allow for the Federal government to have public schools, it is currently unconstitutional.

Really? Where do you get this from?

If it is the case then the US Supreme Court have been merrily ruling on a whole bunch of issues affecting institutions that are unconstitutional.

 

[RanzB]

Remember, i am not saying they should favor the biggest religion of the nation, i am saying they should favor no religion and let communities decide how they want to structure the few minutes. Also, no one is told to leave, they are given the option, which keeps it perfectly fair.

Sorry, First Amendment, go attack that. You're going to convince no one here. Maybe after the 'community' votes on prayer in schools we'll have voting on whether to teach Intelligent Design. You're mad if you think that sort of power would stop at only prayer.

 

[daveza]

i am saying they should favor no religion and let communities decide

Public schools are supported by government funding - allowing any one religion to take preference is again unconstitutional.

The communities can decide if they alone pay for all the schools expenses - which is what a private school is and they can worship Satan or a red bucket if they so choose.

 

[RanzB]

In reality, in spite of their near constant whining, vocal Christians do still hold a huge influence over schools. They only lock on this prayer thing because it gives them something to complain about and fits in nicely with the persecution complex aspect of their religion.

Exactly. Let them pray before school/lunch time/after school. Whining because you want to pray exactly during the hours between school start and school ends is nitpicking.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Really? Where do you get this from?

If it is the case then the US Supreme Court have been merrily ruling on a whole bunch of issues affecting institutions that are unconstitutional.

This is mainly what Ron Paul's campaign is about. The federal government is not allowed to have any institutions other than those prescribed in the constitution. The federal reserve, the department of energy, department of education all of them are unconstitutional.

The funny thing is that it was the Republicans that created the department of education with 'no child left behind'.

see the 10th amendment http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am10

The federal government is not allowed to over rule the states either unless they try to succeed.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 

[noxibox]

The gay Republican group Log Cabin Republicans released a statement condemning the spot -- "Governor Perry is running to be Commander-in-Chief, not Theocrat-in-Chief,"

But in fact he is running to be chief theocrat.

 

[daveza]

It's curious that not being able to impose prayer on everyone upsets the Christian vocal minority so much.

Imagine if they were denied the right to build a church near Ground Zero.....

And if Rick Perry really did say the Beatles are a horrible band then he's a moron and a mormon.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Which one is it ?

An individual school in a christian community can decide for itself to not hold a scientology prayer session for 1 kid because it chooses to hold a short prayer season for the 400 christian kids. If the parents of that one kid are unhappy - which they won't be because the kid has the choice to step out for five minutes - he can change schools. Nobody is that pedantic, and arguing for mass banning of one groups practices in fear of offending one individual who is well treated and given the option to conduct a private prayer session or time with his iPhone is painfully politically correct. Which was what i was saying when i made those comments.

 

[daveza]

in fear of offending one individual who is well treated and given the option to conduct a private prayer session or time with his iPhone

That's a rather romantic notion that the one will enjoy being singled-out and made extremely aware that he/she is not part of the main body.

School kid psychology is a fragile thing.

 

[Rkootknir]

An individual school in a christian community can decide for itself to not hold a scientology prayer session for 1 kid because it chooses to hold a short prayer season for the 400 christian kids. If the parents of that one kid are unhappy - which they won't be because the kid has the choice to step out for five minutes - he can change schools. Nobody is that pedantic, and arguing for mass banning of one groups practices in fear of offending one individual who is well treated and given the option to conduct a private prayer session or time with his iPhone is painfully politically correct. Which was what i was saying when i made those comments.

See bolded. Nobody is arguing for the mass banning of public prayer in public schools.

It is currently prohibited and has been for quite a while (the arguing was done in the 1960s IIRC). Some people want that USSC decision overturned, but that will be difficult as it has been tested quite extensively since then.

 

[Zyzzyva]

That's a rather romantic notion that the one will enjoy being singled-out and made extremely aware that he/she is not part of the main body.

School kid psychology is a fragile thing.

You and others are inventing an extreme to justify your position. One of my best friends growing up got the pleasure of leaving assembly every friday and he loved it.

America is 80% Christian, and those christians will decide for themselves how they want their communities to run by using their vote. And if they outvote a particular group some will cry and say its wrong because the losers can't get their way. But thats how the world works; you sometimes get outvoted. American school sporting teams often pray together before games, and is that somehow wrong because one of the players is a atheist or muslim? Well no, because the atheist needs to realize he is amongst people of a different type who have specific beliefs, and he is the one who need to be tolerant in this particular instance, not them.

 

[Zyzzyva]

See bolded. Nobody is arguing for the mass banning of public prayer in public schools.

It is currently prohibited and has been for quite a while (the arguing was done in the 1960s IIRC). Some people want that USSC decision overturned, but that will be difficult as it has been tested quite extensively since then.

Thats certainly interesting, i'll do some reading.

 

[Rkootknir]

Thats certainly interesting, i'll do some reading.

Wiki: State-sanctioned prayer in public schools

 

[daveza]

America is 80% Christian, and those christians will decide for themselves how they want their communities to run by using their vote.

Yes they can decide how they want their communities to be run - but that does not extend to government funded amenities.

There the constitution rules.

Would you support a majority muslim community invoking sharia law or a majority jewish area not allowing any business on a sabbath ?

 

[Zyzzyva]

Wiki: State-sanctioned prayer in public schools

Yes certain limitation have been applied, but in reality many school in many communities get around it.

For interest sake:

Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.

 

[daveza]

students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech.

In other words, during break.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Yes they can decide how they want their communities to be run - but that does not extend to government funded amenities.

There the constitution rules.

Would you support a majority muslim community invoking sharia law or a majority jewish area not allowing any business on a sabbath ?

Well i was never calling for much, just a few minutes, which is fairly moot really because many schools still achieve those few minutes through "alternative means."

But i have given enough time to this discussion - i'm out of here.