Rick Perry

[copacetic]

No one is calling for hourly prays, that would be unreasonable, we are talking about the very old, done for hundreds of years, practice of singing or praying during assembly or the like.

Separation of church and state is a big part of what America is politically.

If you don't understand why there is no place for this in the public school system, it's clear that nothing we say will make you understand.

*shrug*

 

[Rkootknir]

Yes certain limitation have been applied, but in reality many school in many communities get around it.

For interest sake:

Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.

Your quote illustrates the point nicely (What have you been arguing about?). US public schools are not allowed to have prayers that are "sanctioned" by the school eg. during assembly.

However, the students at these public schools are perfectly free to associate and practise their right to religious freedom when this is not sanctioned by the school itself and doesn't interfere with other students.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Your quote illustrates the point nicely (What have you been arguing about?). US public schools are not allowed to have prayers that are "sanctioned" by the school eg. during assembly.

However, the students at these public schools are perfectly free to associate and practise their right to religious freedom when this is not sanctioned by the school itself and doesn't cause interference with other students.

Rather than discussing the current state of prayer in american schools(which i hadn't done much research on), i was discussing the broader issue of how i thought it should be. I was going against the notion that banning prayer in schools is better than allowing people to make up their minds as long as the time given doesn't disruptive normal school activities.

But yeah, i guess it was useful to look into their current situation, and thanks for giving the info you did, i've done some further reading.

 

[boramk]

Why is it that every Republican candidate is a retarded imbecile?

It's no coincidence people.

 

[daveza]

Why is it that every Republican candidate is a retarded imbecile?

It's a job requirement.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Why is it that every Republican candidate is a retarded imbecile?

It's no coincidence people.

All but Ron Paul really!

[video=youtube;-jQzX_lxQrE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jQzX_lxQrE[/video]

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

All but Ron Paul really!

Including him.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Electi...m/What-is-his-family-and-religious-background

 

[Nicodeamus]

Including him.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Electi...m/What-is-his-family-and-religious-background

I don't see what is wrong with that ?

 

[Zyzzyva]

Separation of church and state is a big part of what America is politically.

If you don't understand why there is no place for this in the public school system, it's clear that nothing we say will make you understand.

*shrug*

Not much has changed really, and those laws only came into play in the sixties, which once again highlight their lack of any real practical importance to the big picture. South African schools(last time i checked, which was awhile ago) do the praying and singing thing - often led by a school principle - and its hardly proof the church and state are in cahoots.

But yes i agree the separation between church and state is important, i just think in this instance people are being a bit priggish.

 

[boramk]

It's a job requirement.

You have to advocate anti-science (evolution and global warming), supply side economics whereby the the rich are taxed less than the poor and where huge corporations go by unregulated and integration of church and state that only engenders division among people, the seclusion of minority's rights for the majority.

Other requirements also involve hypocrisy, cheating on your wife (Herman and Newt), short term memory.

If you have these qualities and more, join the Republican Party!

 

[copacetic]

Not much has changed really, and those laws only came into play in the sixties, which once again highlight their lack of any real practical importance to the big picture. South African schools(last time i checked, which was awhile ago) do the praying and singing thing - often led by a school principle - and its hardly proof the church and state are in cahoots.

But yes i agree the separation between church and state is important, i just think in this instance people are being a bit priggish.

Either it's important and enforced or it's not.

Please excuse my presumption here, but are you a Christian?

I'm just trying to figure out why you condone something that should not take place, in the interests of all involved.

It's not censoring or limiting Christians, they have plenty of places to do their praying and worshipping.

Religious people are just whining because they are used to the populace kowtowing to them.

No more. We are done.

 

[boramk]

No, lets first get this straight ok. SCHOOL is for your children to learn and educate himself/herself. Your child may:

1. Pray in school eg. before lunch
2. Be openly and proudly be a Christian/Muslim/Atheist

Your child may NOT:

1. Be forced to sing in an organised religious event
2. Be forced to pray in classes

You MAY do that in your respective religious institutions or home. By not doing so, you are advocating for the integration of church and state which you all here seems to disagree with. You also tread on the rights of minorities who are not part of the religion that is the majority of the school.

 

[Nicodeamus]

No, lets first get this straight ok. SCHOOL is for your children to learn and educate himself/herself. Your child may:

1. Pray in school eg. before lunch
2. Be openly and proudly be a Christian/Muslim/Atheist

Your child may NOT:

1. Be forced to sing in an organised religious event
2. Be forced to pray in classes

You MAY do that in your respective religious institutions or home. By not doing so, you are advocating for the integration of church and state which you all here seems to disagree with. You also tread on the rights of minorities who are not part of the religion that is the majority of the school.

So if they are allowed to pray and openly admit to be a Christian then what exactly is Rick Perry against here? I remember at school we have CVSV during break, no one forced you to go there, which kinda makes sense.

 

[RanzB]

So if they are allowed to pray and openly admit to be a Christian then what exactly is Rick Perry against here?

As always, Rick Perry is against intelligence. All this is, is an attempt to bringing up talking points that hide his recent gaffes.

 

[daveza]

Other requirements also involve hypocrisy, cheating on your wife (Herman and Newt), short term memory.

If you have these qualities and more, join the Republican Party!

Alan is going to get you

 

[Zyzzyva]

Either it's important and enforced or it's not.

Is our country broken because some of our schools have prayer in schools? Is it really a major problem in any practical sense if a primarily christian school spend a few minutes reading the lords prayer?

And to the rest of your post, i think this says it all.

Please excuse my presumption here, but are you an Atheist?

I'm just trying to figure out why you do not condone something that should take place, in the interests of most involved.

It's not censoring or limiting Atheists, they have plenty of places to do their non praying and non worshipping.

Non religious people are just whining because they are used to the populace kowtowing to them.

No more. We are done.

 

[daveza]

Your child may NOT:

1. Be forced to sing in an organised religious event
2. Be forced to pray in classes

Good point - does the ' go outside and play with your cellphone ' option extend to atheists as well as members of other religions ?

In my day if you weren't jewish, you stayed and sang, like it or not.

 

[Zyzzyva]

No, lets first get this straight ok. SCHOOL is for your children to learn and educate himself/herself. Your child may:

1. Pray in school eg. before lunch
2. Be openly and proudly be a Christian/Muslim/Atheist

Your child may NOT:

1. Be forced to sing in an organised religious event
2. Be forced to pray in classes

You MAY do that in your respective religious institutions or home. By not doing so, you are advocating for the integration of church and state which you all here seems to disagree with. You also tread on the rights of minorities who are not part of the religion that is the majority of the school.

Yeah thats pretty much it.

 

[boramk]

So if they are allowed to pray and openly admit to be a Christian then what exactly is Rick Perry against here? I remember at school we have CVSV during break, no one forced you to go there, which kinda makes sense.

I'm pretty sure you know exactly what Rick Perry means to go with this. "Go back to the Christian ideals that made America great". Come on.

I'm in America right now, I went passed a Barnes and Nobles and found a book that speaks about why America is a fading superpower, its main argument was it losing its Christian values and multiculturalism. Fox News recently chastised Obama for not thanking God in his Thanksgiving speech. It's ridiculous. Separation of church and state means SEPARATION of church and state, that includes non-private schools! I still don't see why you don't have a problem with this! The ONLY time you are allowed to have this point of view is a private school, a non government funded nor sanctioned entity where the church and state are not mixed.

 

[copacetic]

Is our country broken because some of our schools have prayer in schools? Is it really a major problem in any practical sense if a primarily christian school spend a few minutes reading the lords prayer?

I am not sure who suggested countries will be 'broken' by prayer in public schools.

And to the rest of your post, i think this says it all.

Whatever that might mean?

Please excuse my presumption here, but are you an Atheist?

It's not presumptuous at all, yes I am. I notice you did not answer yourself...

I'm just trying to figure out why you do not condone something that should take place, in the interests of most involved.

Not allowing school sanctioned prayer does not harm the interests of anyone involved. No one is stopping them from praying in their spare time and personal capacity. On the other hand, if school sanctioned prayer does take place, then it impinges on the time of non-Christians, who are at school to learn, not to pray, not to mention creates a completely unnecessary 'us and them' situation, the last think school children need, on top of all their other pressure.

It's not censoring or limiting Atheists, they have plenty of places to do their non praying and non worshipping.

This is utterly nonsensical as atheists don't need special treatment, nor do they ask for it. All that is being called for here, is fairness for all involved.

Non religious people are just whining because they are used to the populace kowtowing to them.

But your argument is that this has always been done, and should therefore continue? If people were kowtowing to atheists...

No more. We are done.

No, religious people are not done. They never will be. Indeed, it is the requirement of many religions that they convert and involve their religious beliefs as much as they can in the secular world.