SA freakin TAX

I have doubts about the collective value system involved. The opportunities are there, and sure it's a process that takes time, but the eagerness to burn down when unhappy rather than grasp the opportunity to study and excel, the general apathy towards an ethos of "work hard and uplift myself", the seemingly mismanaged educational system...there is something missing that I can't quite put my finger on and it is worrisome.
 
SiriS said:
I have doubts about the collective value system involved. The opportunities are there, and sure it's a process that takes time, but the eagerness to burn down when unhappy rather than grasp the opportunity to study and excel, the general apathy towards an ethos of "work hard and uplift myself", the seemingly mismanaged educational system...there is something missing that I can't quite put my finger on and it is worrisome.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the problem. A welfare state will have a hard time working properly when this is the mentality of the majority of the people that will gain from said welfare. All the other states have a common thought that prevails about the welfare. That it is degrading to be on it, and that you should get yourself out of it. There is no sense of entitlement of these funds. And if there is it is definitely not the norm, but is the smaller fraction of the welfare recievers.
Here there will not be a strong sense of degradation aimed at the people sucking the government dry of welfare funds, so there will not be enough of a pressure to work their way out of that situation.

The majority of a populace needs to be educated with this sense of degradation over claiming funds from the welfare. In this country that is not the case and will cause a welfare state to collapse in on itself.
 
w1z4rd said:
Hooray!. most of the top countries are welfare states :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state

Im not against this.

Redistribution of wealth is painful though, even more so when its miss-manged :( Ive got more hope in future generations to be smart enough to handle a welfare state successfully.
Click to expand...

I think they are welfare states because they are at the top. I don't think they are at the top because they are welfare states. Many of those countries who were previously rich are having to make plans to cut welfare, it's just too costly. You have to balance welfare with incentive, the socialists haven't been doing that at all, they have been taking the opportunity to get as many people dependant on the state as possible, so that their vote is no longer a choice. Look at the socialists in the UK, they actually made it preferable to not work, as opposed to earning minimum wage. Working minimum wage, you might only earn about 1 pound more than if you didn't work at all that day. Noone is effectively going to work for a day for 1 pound. Not worth the time.

ED: I don't care if they are communists, socialists, capitalists or anything else. If they can secure power by destroying their own state, they will see that as the ends justifying the means. They will do anything to get votes, including intentionally misapplying their own ideologies.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
TheHiveMind said:
I think they are welfare states because they are at the top. I don't think they are at the top because they are welfare states. .
Click to expand...

I have dealt with this myth many times. Most went welfare in their darkest hours, you would have seen the pre and post welfare stats if you had bothered to read the wiki link.

Please have a look at the section "Welfare effects on poverty" They show what it was like pre-welfare and post welfare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_on_poverty

France went welfare when its economy was complete decimated from two world wars and they had record unemployment. Sweden went welfare when the charity system failed and there were food riots.
 
Last edited:
Sinbad said:
They need to read the parable of the 10 guys going out for supper regularly.
Click to expand...

Well 10 guys going for supper is microeconomic.... not macroenomic..... Anyone who applies a microeconomic analogy to macroeconomic issues should read up on the difference between the two.

Ill give you an example of how microeconomics fails on the macro level. (Say) I have a family of 10. We are running low on money. It would make all the sense in the world that cutting back on expenses and "tightening the belt" would leave that family in a better financial condition. Now that concepts fails on the macro level because you are dealing with a family that doubles in size regularly. No amount of tightning the belt is going to help no matter how much you tighten it. Only investments in development will cut it now. You need to invest to have the capacity to deal with future numbers.

EDIT: I often see these type of fake analogies that used to make sense to me. As they say, bull**** baffles brains and if you dont have a good understanding of the issues, these microeconomic analogy arguments make a lot of sense. Thank goodness people pushing me to learn economics means I now understand where the BS comes in :D Still got a ton to learn but Im slowly getting there.
 
Last edited:
ghoti said:
Well 10 guys going for supper is microeconomic.... not macroenomic..... Anyone who applies a microeconomic analogy to macroeconomic issues should read up on the difference between the two.

Ill give you an example of how microeconomics fails on the macro level. (Say) I have a family of 10. We are running low on money. It would make all the sense in the world that cutting back on expenses and "tightening the belt" would leave that family in a better financial condition. Now that concepts fails on the macro level because you are dealing with a family that doubles in size regularly. No amount of tightning the belt is going to help no matter how much you tighten it. Only investments in development will cut it now. You need to invest to have the capacity to deal with future numbers.

EDIT: I often see these type of fake analogies that used to make sense to me. As they say, bull**** baffles brains and if you dont have a good understanding of the issues, these microeconomic analogy arguments make a lot of sense. Thank goodness people pushing me to learn economics means I now understand where the BS comes in :D Still got a ton to learn but Im slowly getting there.
Click to expand...

And if all the rich Whiteys left you don't think that would have a macro impact on tax collected?
 
Sinbad said:
And if all the rich Whiteys left you don't think that would have a macro impact on tax collected?
Click to expand...

I was commenting on a flawed analogy. As far as I know more people are paying tax now than ever before. Also, our tax rates are pretty average when you look around the world. Why it would be sad for people to leave. If they wish to they are welcome to. Someone else will do their work and get paid for it. There is a ****load of economic opportunities in South Africa and if one person doesnt want them, someone else will.
 
Last edited:
ghoti said:
I was commenting on a flawed analogy. As far as I know more people are paying tax now than ever before. Also, our tax rates are pretty average when you look around the world. Why it would be sad for people to leave. If they wish to they are welcome to. Someone else will do their work and get paid for it. There is a ****load of economic opportunities in South Africa and if one person doesnt want them, someone else will.
Click to expand...

That will still leave the same amount of people paying tax.
 
ghoti said:
I have dealt with this myth many times. Most went welfare in their darkest hours, you would have seen the pre and post welfare stats if you had bothered to read the wiki link.

Please have a look at the section "Welfare effects on poverty" They show what it was like pre-welfare and post welfare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_on_poverty

France went welfare when its economy was complete decimated from two world wars and they had record unemployment. Sweden went welfare when the charity system failed and there were food riots.
Click to expand...

This is quite true. The difference here is that the people of those countries felt indebted to the government for helping them through the hard times. They realised that the country was suffering and did everything that they could to help get the economy back on track.
Many of these people were previously in a decent position and knew of good things before welfare. Welfare was a step backwards for many of them, so they knew what to work towards.

Welfare in SA is a step forwards for most of the people on it, and so their sense of entitlement and lack of an understanding of hard work will pull the country down, as more and more rely on it without trying to raise above it.
 
ghoti said:
I was commenting on a flawed analogy. As far as I know more people are paying tax now than ever before. Also, our tax rates are pretty average when you look around the world. Why it would be sad for people to leave. If they wish to they are welcome to. Someone else will do their work and get paid for it. There is a ****load of economic opportunities in South Africa and if one person doesnt want them, someone else will.
Click to expand...

I don't feel our tax rate is average. I feel it is extremely high especially given the "off payslip" taxes we also pay- private healthcare, private security, private schooling etc.
Also, if I leave my company can replace me with 2 people, paying each of them half my salary and the governments tax revenue from my function would probably be halved.
 
SoulTax said:
This is quite true. The difference here is that the people of those countries felt indebted to the government for helping them through the hard times. They realised that the country was suffering and did everything that they could to help get the economy back on track.
Many of these people were previously in a decent position and knew of good things before welfare. Welfare was a step backwards for many of them, so they knew what to work towards.

Welfare in SA is a step forwards for most of the people on it, and so their sense of entitlement and lack of an understanding of hard work will pull the country down, as more and more rely on it without trying to raise above it.
Click to expand...

Based on the amount of whine out there. The sense of entitlement is not just a poor person on welfare thing. And no, there was no social harmony and the cultures were fractured when they went welfare. No, most people on welfare were not in decent positions before welfare was introduced. Most were born into poverty. However, if you can give me a real life example of this fantastical pre welfare society you talk of... I wouldnt mind seeing it.


Sinbad said:
I don't feel our tax rate is average.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well wikipedia can show you what you dont feel.

I feel it is extremely high especially given the "off payslip" taxes we also pay- private healthcare, private security, private schooling etc.
Click to expand...
Well yeah... if you have more wants you gotta pay for them. However, needs come before wants. I also want the luxuries of private health care and private schooling. Do you also think other countries with high tax rates dont have those "off payslip" (laughed at that term) taxes?

Also, if I leave my company can replace me with 2 people, paying each of them half my salary and the governments tax revenue from my function would probably be halved.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the productivity will increase with 2 people instead of 1 and they`ll pay more in corporate taxes. We can all speculate about this type of thing.
 
Last edited:
ghoti said:
Based on the amount of whine out there. The sense of entitlement is not just a poor person on welfare thing. And no, there was no social harmony and the cultures were fractured when they went welfare. No, most people on welfare were not in decent positions before welfare was introduced. Most were born into poverty. However, if you can give me a real life example of this fantastical pre welfare society you talk of... I wouldnt mind seeing it.
Click to expand...

You said yourself. France went welfare post war. Many of them had an inkling of what life can be like when you pay your own way. I am not saying that life was amazing. I am saying that the mindsets of those people were different for a variety of reasons.
I am not saying that people were well off, and then went welfare. I am saying that some people were just fine, then wars broke out and they fell on really hard times. Then years later, the welfare system came in and saved them from starvation. They were grateful but also motivated to use welfare as a stepping stone to better things.

Welfare in SA was not implemented in the same conditions. The people one welfare have, for the most part, always had nothing. They have never had the education or the life experience to know more than mud and fetching water from 2 miles away. Now they are given money, for no apparent work or reason. Without possessing the understanding that money does not grow on trees. That money does not magically and endlessly come out of ATMs as long as you have the magical plastic card. They are not plumbers that could not find work because war time killed the economy. They are not farmers that couldn't farm because of a drought.
They are people that don't have the skills to contribute to a modern day society and economy. And now they have free money. The side effect of which, prevents them from cultivating their own sad little veggie garden with one goat and 5 chickens. Because they think the money will keep them afloat forever. So what skills they may have, are being robbed from them by giving them money without education or an understanding of limitations.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X