SA freakin TAX

[Sinbad]

Just for comparison - if I moved to the USA, my salary there would probably be comparable to my salary here. (I'm highly specialised in the SA market).
My total income tax burden there would be +- 25%
My total income tax burden here is 32%. Then add VAT - many states don't have sales tax.

So I submit, we are HIGHLY taxed here.

 

[w1z4rd]

Sinbad... what do you think of Canadian, Norwegian, Finish and Swedish public education? Think its worth aiming for that? Or should we aim for not 25. America.

 

[SoulTax]

Again, 90% of that blanket is people too old, too young or too disabled to work.

South Africa is first world? Wow.

PS, most of those countries got to their first world statuses because of welfare

Oh for god's sake man, learn to read. I never once said that SA was a first world country.

Secondly, Most of those countries did not get to their first world Status because of Welfare. That is like saying that I managed to walk to the shop and back because I have a nose.
Sure my nose was part of the body that traveled there and back. But it did not magically lift me up and fly me there on jetstreams of boogers.

Welfare may have been part of the system while those countries reached "1st world status", but to say that it was because of welfare that they made it there is just moronic.

 

[w1z4rd]

So I submit, we are HIGHLY taxed here.

By wikipedia we are pretty average. I could handle Swedish levels of taxation if I got the same returns.

 

[w1z4rd]

Oh for god's sake man, learn to read. I never once said that SA was a first world country.

Yes I know this. That was my way of highlighting your fallacy that I was just using "first world examples". Many countries like Finland (which suffered a russian invasion) were not yet developed countries. Sweden was in a craaaaaaap state.

Secondly, Most of those countries did not get to their first world Status because of Welfare. That is like saying that I managed to walk to the shop and back because I have a nose.

Welfare lead to a drop in unemployment which lead to stronger economies which lead to more developed states. Whats not to get here?

Welfare may have been part of the system while those countries reached "1st world status", but to say that it was because of welfare that they made it there is just moronic.

Could you show me 1 developed nation without welfare? The least developed country in the world has no government or government welfare. (Somalia).

 

[Sinbad]

Sinbad... what do you think of Canadian, Norwegian, Finish and Swedish public education? Think its worth aiming for that? Or should we aim for not 25. America.

UK tax burden, 32%. Yes, VAT there is higher. But don't need security, a car, medical aid or anything like that.
Finland tax burden 33%. No idea about security etc, but I'm sure I also wouldn't need them there.

So, we're right up there with the top "socialist" societies in terms of taxation. And get ****all for it.

 

[w1z4rd]

UK tax burden, 32%. Yes, VAT there is higher. But don't need security, a car, medical aid or anything like that.
Finland tax burden 33%. No idea about security etc, but I'm sure I also wouldn't need them there.
.

It took most of those countries 50 year to get there.

You should really really read this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

 

[Sinbad]

It took most of those countries 50 year to get there.

Well we're halfway through the 50 year thing, almost... And going backwards.

 

[w1z4rd]

Well we're halfway through the 50 year thing, almost... And going backwards.

Most South Africans would disagree with you. More people have access to housing, medical services, basic services than ever before. We have hit a bad rut yeah. The only valid argument against welfare is its complex to manage. Its certainly is and we need the people who manage it to have integrity and to do it intelligently. We can do it. We need new leaders. A better government. This one is ***.

I put a late link in my last reply. Its informative so Ill share it again: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

 

[SoulTax]

Yes I know this. That was my way of highlighting your fallacy that I was just using "first world examples". Many countries like Finland (which suffered a russian invasion) were not yet developed countries. Sweden was in a craaaaaaap state.

Welfare lead to a drop in unemployment which lead to stronger economies which lead to more developed states. Whats not to get here?


Could you show me 1 developed nation without welfare? The least developed country in the world has no government or government welfare. (Somalia).

Why can you not understand that that will not happen in SA? On welfare, many mothers simply have children to get money from the state. That happens in all of the welfare states where Child support is given. In SA, the number of mothers that will abuse this and not understand the larger picture is orders of magnitude greater than in other countries.
At least in other countries those people are treated as leeches and so the negative connotations will help to prevent the issue from perpetuating itself. In SA that will not happen.
Look at those statistics posted earlier. Both the EC and KZN have the highest dependency on welfare, even higher than the economic hub of the country, Gauteng. So tell me whether those people in rural areas are going to be ostracized for having too many kids and leeching off the state?

Welfare may have helped other countries out. But in SA it will bring us down. It needs better management, but also the people need a different mindset and level of education to understand the impact to the economy of simply leeching.

 

[BTTB]

By wikipedia we are pretty average. I could handle Swedish levels of taxation if I got the same returns.

The Nordic countries are heavily taxed, but they can see where their money is spent as you so well say.
Here we have no idea of where our money goes, despite the Budget which just talks in Billions going here and Billions going there. Let's face it, our money is poorly managed, even Trevor Manuel said it a few years back, I think just after he left office as Minister of Finance, where he indicated that all Government Departments were funded properly and this was definitely the case as in those years we were running Budget Surpluses, he basically conveyed that the money albeit in the coffers of each Department was just not been spent where it should be or not at all. This is simply bad management, as the needs become compounded over time, until things break at which time Government is running around trying to patch things up when basically if things were maintained properly for which there was appropriate funding, a whole lot of the issues that plague South Africa today in regards to infrastructure and services would not be a concern.
Let me not even bring corruption into this picture as those figures are incalculable.

 

[Sinbad]

Most South Africans would disagree with you. More people have access to housing, medical services, basic services than ever before. We have hit a bad rut yeah. The only valid argument against welfare is its complex to manage. Its certainly is and we need the people who manage it to have integrity and to do it intelligently. We can do it. We need new leaders. A better government. This one is ***.

I put a late link in my last reply. Its informative so Ill share it again: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

Cost of living is skyrocketing. Cost of food is skyrocketing. My average municipal bill is now 4 times what it was 6 years ago.
RDP houses fall apart. http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/a67f75...-assurance-seen-as-key-to-RDP-houses-delivery
Healthcare? It's available in name only, not in substance http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politi...b/en/page71654?oid=339717&sn=Detail&pid=71654
Basic services?
Like water? http://mg.co.za/report/south-africas-water-crisis
Electricity? http://www.news24.com/SciTech/News/SA-electricity-in-crisis-20120618
Internet? http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/techno...a-still-lagging-behind-1.1307760#.UUCgOxxTB8E
Cellphones? http://mybroadband.co.za/news/cellular/47782-sa-cellphone-operators-are-ripping-off-consumers.html

Backwards, I maintain.

 

[w1z4rd]

Cost of living is skyrocketing. Cost of food is skyrocketing. My average municipal bill is now 4 times what it was 6 years ago.

Yeah I noticed that. Again its down to bad management, but I dont know about you. My life is better than it was 6 years ago. I earn way more, have a lot more.... sure I get taxed more... but the more Im taxed, its means the more I am earning

RDP houses fall apart. http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/a67f75...-assurance-seen-as-key-to-RDP-houses-delivery

Terrible management. We need new management.

Healthcare? It's available in name only, not in substance http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politi...b/en/page71654?oid=339717&sn=Detail&pid=71654

Bad management but not as bad as you are making it out to be. Before I was in a job where I could afford medical aid I had to use public healthcare services. Theyre definitely run bad in many provinces but they got it working way better in the WC

Basic services?
Like water? http://mg.co.za/report/south-africas-water-crisis
Electricity? http://www.news24.com/SciTech/News/SA-electricity-in-crisis-20120618
Internet? http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/techno...a-still-lagging-behind-1.1307760#.UUCgOxxTB8E
Cellphones? http://mybroadband.co.za/news/cellular/47782-sa-cellphone-operators-are-ripping-off-consumers.html

Backwards, I maintain.

Dunno, I remember a time when internet was WAY More expensive and way slower than now. Which is why I formed an activist group. Cellphones... we havent broken that cartel yet but I cant recall a time when they were "ripping us off any less".

Oh and Ill add rail, roads, bridges and electric systems to your list!

 

[w1z4rd]

The Nordic countries are heavily taxed, but they can see where their money is spent as you so well say.
Here we have no idea of where our money goes, despite the Budget which just talks in Billions going here and Billions going there. Let's face it, our money is poorly managed, even Trevor Manuel said it a few years back, I think just after he left office as Minister of Finance, where he indicated that all Government Departments were funded properly and this was definitely the case as in those years we were running Budget Surpluses, he basically conveyed that the money albeit in the coffers of each Department was just not been spent where it should be or not at all. This is simply bad management, as the needs become compounded over time, until things break at which time Government is running around trying to patch things up when basically if things were maintained properly for which there was appropriate funding, a whole lot of the issues that plague South Africa today in regards to infrastructure and services would not be a concern.
Let me not even bring corruption into this picture as those figures are incalculable.

Bastards are badly managing our money. We need to fix that. Get involved.

 

[w1z4rd]

We are not a poor country. If we sort our **** out and learn to work together, we can actually have a kick ass country with decent public health care and quality free university. We can educate more people out of poverty and bring more tax payers. More taxpayers means more civilization.

 

[JonnStar]

I suspect this makes things very difficult for first time buyers and also for young people to make any sort of long term investment, as all their wealth is simply being eaten away.

This is also probably why many people coming up on retirement are unable to retire comfortably anymore, I guess they had no way to prepare for all this extra financial stress that didn't exist long ago. Aside from personal experience I have also noticed an alarming number of parents now being financially sustained by their late 20's, early 30's children. What is this about? Is this just an observation in my small bubble or are others seeing this as well?

The life of the average white guy (previously advantaged) in SA mind you.

So in a nutshell, the previously advantaged has no more wealth, the previously disadvantaged is living on welfare but still has no wealth, and expenses are still going up and up...so what happens now?

 

[JonnStar]

We are not a poor country. If we sort our **** out and learn to work together, we can actually have a kick ass country with decent public health care and quality free university. We can educate more people out of poverty and bring more tax payers. More taxpayers means more civilization.

That will never happen. ANC will remain in power simple as that.

 

[w1z4rd]

Why can you not understand that that will not happen in SA?

Because I read economics books and believe in empirical evidence.

On welfare, many mothers simply have children to get money from the state. That happens in all of the welfare states where Child support is given. In SA, the number of mothers that will abuse this and not understand the larger picture is orders of magnitude greater than in other countries.

So.... why not manage it better and put a limit on it? lol Do you know South Africa`s fertility rate is decreasing slightly. We have reached our population equilibrium it seems.

At least in other countries those people are treated as leeches and so the negative connotations will help to prevent the issue from perpetuating itself. In SA that will not happen.

Pregnant woman in those countries on welfare are not treated like leaches. They are supported. I think France gives the mother a nanny for several months as well.

Look at those statistics posted earlier. Both the EC and KZN have the highest dependency on welfare,

Imagine that. The former homeland areas of the former Transkei and Ciskei has high welfare. Gee.... wonder how that came to be.

even higher than the economic hub of the country, Gauteng. So tell me whether those people in rural areas are going to be ostracized for having too many kids and leeching off the state?

Hopefully we can educate as many of their kids out of poverty as possible. However. South Africa`s fertility rate is not increasing so we can manage this...

Welfare may have helped other countries out. But in SA it will bring us down.

I think Ill stick to empirical evidence and the economic text books rather than random formum dude.

It needs better management, but also the people need a different mindset and level of education to understand the impact to the economy of simply leeching.

90% of people on welfare are too old and too young to work......

 

[w1z4rd]

That will never happen. ANC will remain in power simple as that.

No it wont. Simple as that. Everything changes.

 

[Sinbad]

Imagine that. The former homeland areas of the former Transkei and Ciskei has high welfare. Gee.... wonder how that came to be.

You're discounting Venda and Bophutatswana?

Hopefully we can educate as many of their kids out of poverty as possible. However. South Africa`s fertility rate is not increasing so we can manage this...

Not going to happen under the current regime. There are schools with 140 grade 2 kids per class, and nothing gets done..

90% of people on welfare are too old and too young to work......

Sauce?