SA Politics Thread Part 10 : The GNU Has Crashed

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R13... said:
Would have been good to have them answer questions. They killed her in what seems a couple of hours after picking her up. And its been suggested they're a syndicate.
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Something is off here...
 
ToxicBunny said:
Simple answer, I dunno.

More complicated answer is it will entirely depend on the situation, but arresting a person who is suspected of kidnapping and robbing 2 women 6 days later on bail feels very very off to me, would want to know the details around it.

Bail needs to be fair to be effective, but it mustn't also be so easy as to fail the citizens at almost every turn.
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That is the problem I am talking about, the assumption of being innocent until proven guilty doesn't discriminate, it is fair, and therein lies the problem.

Bail was offered to them probably because they were first offenders, despite the weight of the crime they were accused of. If our law was applied in such a way that it slightly disadvantages the accused based on the seriousness of the alleged crime, those guys would never had got bail.

This is just another example of us being victims of our goody two shoes nature, when Mkhwanazi was busy mowing these low lives down people were moaning as if he has some hit squad killing innocent children in KZN.

There is always the media, Experts, dodgy lawyers and NGOs second guessing the state at every turn, frustrating it's efforts, then we wonder why the law is working for criminals.
 
MalcomZ said:
There is a serial killer in Sandton. This reeks of a cover up.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1928321188733796390
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So wait, you're positing that the police are covering up a serial killer in Sandton who would be killing random people who, on the face of it.

So national police officers from senior senior management are in on this cover up, all the way down the chain?
 
TheChamp said:
That is the problem I am talking about, the assumption of being innocent until proven guilty doesn't discriminate, it is fair, and therein lies the problem.

Bail was offered to them probably because they were first offenders, despite the weight of the crime they were accused of. If our law was applied in such a way that it slightly disadvantages the accused based on the seriousness of the alleged crime, those guys would never had got bail.

This is just another example of us being victims of our goody two shoes nature, when Mkhwanazi was busy mowing these low lives down people were moaning as if he has some hit squad killing innocent children in KZN.

There is always the media, Experts, dodgy lawyers and NGOs second guessing the state at every turn, then we wonder why the law is working for criminals.
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So nope I generally disagree with it being a problem.
The fairness isn't the problem at all, the implementation of bail is where the problem lies. That someone who has been accused of committing murder/kidnapping/etc serious crimes is granted bail of a few hundred rands vs someone who is accused of stealing money getting bail at a few 10s of thousands of rands is partly where the problem lies. I do get that there needs to be an element of economic reality applied to the bail value, but atm it is way out of kilter with the seriousness of the crimes.

There is also an element of the police system failing the justice system involved in this. If the police had the resources to get investigations completed faster and better then these guys may not have been granted bail in the first place but been prosecuted instead.
 
ToxicBunny said:
Simple answer, I dunno.

More complicated answer is it will entirely depend on the situation, but arresting a person who is suspected of kidnapping and robbing 2 women 6 days later on bail feels very very off to me, would want to know the details around it.

Bail needs to be fair to be effective, but it mustn't also be so easy as to fail the citizens at almost every turn.
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Prosecuter's need to be properly trained. If they cannot paint the picture to get bail denied then there is no reason why bail cannot be given
 
Major Boredom said:
Prosecuter's need to be properly trained. If they cannot paint the picture to get bail denied then there is no reason why bail cannot be given
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Largely why I say the justice system failed Olorato (and every other person who has been hurt/killed by someone on bail for a serious crime)
 
Major Boredom said:
Prosecuter's need to be properly trained. If they cannot paint the picture to get bail denied then there is no reason why bail cannot be given
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Not knowing how the circumstances of the first arrest looks like it would be difficult to know if the prosecution did a bad job of presenting the case.

Were they apprehended with their kidnapped victim? Because surely in that instance bail would have been denied. If they were apprehended months later, that would obviously weaken the state's plea for bail not to be granted.
 
ToxicBunny said:
So wait, you're positing that the police are covering up a serial killer in Sandton who would be killing random people who, on the face of it.

So national police officers from senior senior management are in on this cover up, all the way down the chain?
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TheChamp said:
Now you sound like those right wing farm murder conspiracy theorists, how did South Africans stray so far into the world of make believe?
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It is possible that some of farm owners sold farms and moved to Sandton. Cyril's genocide squad is quite efficient.
 
I am surprised we are not discussing the shenanigans that happened yesterday in Tshwane with the DA walking out due to the speaker not accepting their requests. The interesting part is the DA councillors that stayed behind they had more important things to do than petty politics are being labelled as traitors at the moment. The DA councillor that stayed behind is responsible for my area and it should be noted that the DA supporters in our area are PISSED about them walking out and essentially ignoring the item directly influencing our area. Due to this I might be considering voting for councillor and a non DA party in the next municipal election.
 
Sideshow Bob said:
It is possible that some of farm owners sold farms and moved to Sandton. Cyril's genocide squad is quite efficient.
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The genocide squad is clearly pretty shyte then (even though we know it is) since they don't seem to be targeting farmers in Sandton.
 
ToxicBunny said:
There is also an element of the police system failing the justice system involved in this. If the police had the resources to get investigations completed faster and better then these guys may not have been granted bail in the first place but been prosecuted instead.
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There is still the matter of the court's inefficiencies, incomplete investigations isn't the only reason prosecutions aren't processed faster, for all we know, in this case the police might have been ready and the court could have enrolled the case for a later date for one readon or the other.

I would also like to point out that dangerous criminals getting bail and going on to commit other crimes while out on bail is a global phenomenon, not a South African problem, so if our prosecutors being not properly trained is the problem, what's wrong with other countries?

www.theguardian.com

900,000 crimes committed by people on bail under Tories, analysis finds

Offences committed in England and Wales have included murder, kidnap, and child rape, study of data shows
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The solution is way simpler, we need to stop our obsession with wanting to be a global champion of human rights, there is simply too much benefit of doubt for accused people and that is the reason why it looks like there is something wrong our justice system is doing.
 
TheChamp said:
There is still the matter of the court's inefficiencies, incomplete investigations isn't the only reason prosecutions aren't processed faster, for all we know, in this case the police might have been ready and the court could have enrolled the case for a later date for one readon or the other.

I would also like to point out that dangerous criminals getting bail and going on to commit other crimes while out on bail is a global phenomenon, not a South African problem, so if our prosecutors being not properly trained is the problem, what's wrong with other countries?

www.theguardian.com

900,000 crimes committed by people on bail under Tories, analysis finds

Offences committed in England and Wales have included murder, kidnap, and child rape, study of data shows
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The solution is way simpler, we need to stop our obsession with wanting to be a global champion of human rights, there is simply too much benefit of doubt for accused people and that is the reason why it looks like there is something wrong our justice system is doing.
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Again no, we don't need to stop our obsession with wanting to be a global champion of human rights because we aren't and are a country mile away from anything of the sort in reality.

What we do need to do is get the inefficiencies in justice/policing/etc under control. We will never stop people getting bail and going on to commit other crimes, but we can reduce it significantly.
 
TheChamp said:
There is still the matter of the court's inefficiencies, incomplete investigations isn't the only reason prosecutions aren't processed faster, for all we know, in this case the police might have been ready and the court could have enrolled the case for a later date for one readon or the other.

I would also like to point out that dangerous criminals getting bail and going on to commit other crimes while out on bail is a global phenomenon, not a South African problem, so if our prosecutors being not properly trained is the problem, what's wrong with other countries?

www.theguardian.com

900,000 crimes committed by people on bail under Tories, analysis finds

Offences committed in England and Wales have included murder, kidnap, and child rape, study of data shows
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The solution is way simpler, we need to stop our obsession with wanting to be a global champion of human rights, there is simply too much benefit of doubt for accused people and that is the reason why it looks like there is something wrong our justice system is doing.
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Many in UK are snowflakes and seem to jail & bail rather quickly except for terrorism & grooming gangs and these 2 real offenses are not really offensive because it will make Plods racist to pursue them.

UK police record meticulously though - I don't think we have that level of detail available on stats.
 
Sideshow Bob said:
Many in UK are snowflakes and seem to jail & bail rather quickly except for terrorism & grooming gangs and these 2 real offenses are not really offensive because it will make Plods racist to pursue them.

UK police record meticulously though - I don't think we have that level of detail available on stats.
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Our entire system is stuck in the 90's. Home affairs is the same. Nothing was upgraded, nothing went digital in time. There are stacks of paper to the ceilings in some cop stations. Heck my DFO didn't even know what type of gun he was carrying when I asked. Untrained, unmotivated, under resourced, the list goes on. I can't stand dealing with the police in SA.
 
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