SAA faces big issues

Well I gave up and looked it up. Apparently the entire concept of national airlines originates with a meeting in 1944 in Chicago:

The idea of a flag carrier came about in 1944 at what is now called the Chicago Convention, which featured representatives from 54 countries, said Samuel Engel, head of the aviation practice at the consulting firm ICF, and an occasional consultant to national airlines. At the time, he said, the convention defined a flag airline as “substantially owned and effectively controlled by citizens and nationals of the country.”

Most countries had one. Some had two. The idea was simple: These airlines carried the flags of their countries abroad, and often received government support, as well as monopolies or near-monopolies on key routes. They didn’t need to make money, because as another consultant recalled, a nation could not be considered legitimate until it had collectible stamps and a flag carrier.

Read the rest of the article - it is very interesting. Manages to discuss the topic intelligently.

https://skift.com/2018/09/04/why-do-national-airlines-still-exist/
 
I'm going to tell you the same thing - this can't be the only answer to absolutely everything. I think we are totally stuck in a mindset in SA that big bad evil ANC is responsible for everything from sunspots to global warming. This patently is not true. Nor is it true that the only answer to everything that goes wrong with a particular business is 'looting'. It certainly is NOT the damn answer to - why do we have a national airline at all, ESPECIALLY seeing as how the SAA predated the bloody ANC!!!!

Why on earth are you arguing this? Have you actually taken note of what has happened to just about every SOE in South Africa? They've all been plundered. I don't think a single one of them can function on their own without treasury bailing them out, and that is not incompetence. The Zupta cabal that plundered SA for close on a decade and destroyed every single SOE was not incompetence.

As for why we have SAA; as with many, many countries around the world, it is a national carrier. Nothing outlandish about it. And as with all SOEs, it was fully functional, served a purpose and was independent of treasury until the ANC figured out that they can siphon money off of it.

Do we need one now? The reality is, the ANC have destroyed it and so it is something we cannot afford to keep propping up. So it is not even a question of do we need it, we simply cannot afford to keep propping it up. But they will continue to prop it up for reasons you - bizarrely - refuse to accept.
 
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Why on earth are you arguing this? Have you actually taken note of what has happened to just about every SOE in South Africa? They've all been plundered. I don't think a single one of them can function on their own without treasury bailing them out, and that is not incompetence. The Zupta cabal that plundered SA for close on a decade and destroyed every single SOE was not incompetence.

As for why we have SAA; as with many, many countries around the world, it is a national carrier. Nothing outlandish about it. And as with all SOEs, it was fully functional, served a purpose and was independent of treasury until the ANC figured out that they can siphon money off of it.

Do we need one now? The reality is, the ANC have destroyed it and so it is something we cannot afford to keep propping up. So it is not even a question of do we need it, we simply cannot afford to keep propping it up. But they will continue to prop it up for reasons you - bizarrely - refuse to accept.

Read the article and get your head out of your ANC biased rear end and you will discover GASP that while the issues of the SAA have been exacerbated by the combined incompetence and corruption of those involved, the fundamental issue of unsustainability is not related to the ANC nor is unique to South Africa.
 
Read the article and get your head out of your ANC biased rear end and you will discover GASP that while the issues of the SAA have been exacerbated by the combined incompetence and corruption of those involved, the fundamental issue of unsustainability is not related to the ANC nor is unique to South Africa.

Who is preventing the necessary job cuts at SAA?
 
Read the article and get your head out of your ANC biased rear end and you will discover GASP that while the issues of the SAA have been exacerbated by the combined incompetence and corruption of those involved, the fundamental issue of unsustainability is not related to the ANC nor is unique to South Africa.

Everything you say doesn't change the fact that the SAA, along with all SOEs, are being and have been exploited for gain - both monetary and politically - and that is why they are perpetually being propped up and why there have been no job cuts or changes to the way they operate. This is why the SAA continues to exist and this is why none of the SOEs will ever be privatised. People are benefiting from them and the money that is thrown at them.

I mean honestly, show me a private company in a financial crisis that does not cut jobs, scale-down, restructure or sell-off parts of its business?

“At the core of corruption was patronage”.

Patronage networks in South Africa – particularly within the ANC – have seen politically connected individuals being appointed to head state-owned enterprises like SA Airways, Eskom, Denel and Transnet. Deployments to key parliamentary and government positions have also been due to patronage.

https://citizen.co.za/news/south-af...w-patronage-captured-the-anc-and-state-jonas/

Some of South Africa’s state-owned enterprises are being used for personal ends by individuals within the ruling African National Congress.

...

SAA has a similarly sad tale. The national airline incurred a R2.5 billion loss in the 2013/14 financial year. It has failed to submit financial statements for the past two years and is technically insolvent. Although several of its board members laid complaints against its chairperson Dudu Myeni, no action has been taken against her. Instead, they were summarily removed from their positions. And Myeni has been reappointed chairperson.

https://businesstech.co.za/news/gen...-billions-while-being-used-for-personal-ends/

Austria privatised its flag carrier two-years after it started making a loss that necessitated changes to the business and job cuts. This is what a responsible government does.
 
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“This rot is across the board. It’s not confined to any level or any area of the country. Almost every project is conceived because it offers opportunities for certain people to make money. A great deal of the ANC’s problems are occasioned by this.” Kgalema Motlanthe, 19 January 2007
 
“This rot is across the board. It’s not confined to any level or any area of the country. Almost every project is conceived because it offers opportunities for certain people to make money. A great deal of the ANC’s problems are occasioned by this.” Kgalema Motlanthe, 19 January 2007
Aka the Reverse Mida Touch, everything they touch turns to s**t.
 
Fact:. The government has mismanaged the airline which has, inter alia, enabled looting. Do you dispute that?

No, but that isn't what I asked, and replying with that as answer to what I asked didn't answer the question. Points scoring took precedence over reading with comprehension and knowledge.

IF you read the article I linked you will see that national airlines ALL OVER THE GLOBE are facing the same issues of not being financially viable for various reasons not least being that they have never been financially viable because they are a pride / advertising thing rather than a commercial thing. And more than a few have already folded or been privatised because they were not sustainable.

So while you can yap on about corruption and incompetence these are not fundamentally why SAA is in trouble. They make the situation worse, but fixing them isn't going to fix SAA because they are not the root cause of the problem. So sure, go ahead, carry on making points, while not contributing anything useful to the discussion.
 
No, but that isn't what I asked, and replying with that as answer to what I asked didn't answer the question. Points scoring took precedence over reading with comprehension and knowledge.

IF you read the article I linked you will see that national airlines ALL OVER THE GLOBE are facing the same issues of not being financially viable for various reasons not least being that they have never been financially viable because they are a pride / advertising thing rather than a commercial thing. And more than a few have already folded or been privatised because they were not sustainable.

So while you can yap on about corruption and incompetence these are not fundamentally why SAA is in trouble. They make the situation worse, but fixing them isn't going to fix SAA because they are not the root cause of the problem. So sure, go ahead, carry on making points, while not contributing anything useful to the discussion.

Would you care to explain why SAA was a profitable business before the ANC government got their greedy little hands on it?

You are still blind to the obvious.

I do agree that we don't need a national flag carrier airline at all.

You still have not answered my previous question. SAA and most other SOEs were run quite well and profitably before ANC rule.
 
No, but that isn't what I asked, and replying with that as answer to what I asked didn't answer the question. Points scoring took precedence over reading with comprehension and knowledge.

IF you read the article I linked you will see that national airlines ALL OVER THE GLOBE are facing the same issues of not being financially viable for various reasons not least being that they have never been financially viable because they are a pride / advertising thing rather than a commercial thing. And more than a few have already folded or been privatised because they were not sustainable.

Think a bit instead of making personal jibes.

Why have transparent and well-governed countries - Austria, Australia and Germany - privatised their national carriers - Austrian Airlines, Qantas and Lufthansa respectively - when they have nothing to gain from them while South Africa has continued to prop up an unsustainable entity?

The answer lies in things you refuse to accept, even when presented with new articles highlighting this. SAA exists to line pockets and meet political goals (jobs). Its that simple. It adds nothing to SA and SA would not miss it. Its only value is the ability to abuse it for personal and political (party exclusive) gain.

So while you can yap on about corruption and incompetence these are not fundamentally why SAA is in trouble. They make the situation worse, but fixing them isn't going to fix SAA because they are not the root cause of the problem. So sure, go ahead, carry on making points, while not contributing anything useful to the discussion.

You sure about that?

The South African Cabin Crew Association (SACCA)‚ which represents 1‚300 South African Airways (SAA) cabin crew members‚ has slammed government for failing to act on reports revealing more than R1.8-billion in tender irregularities at SAA.

...

The union listed at least 34 contracts that it said were red-flagged by the investigation reports.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/politic...egularities-at-saa-sa-cabin-crew-association/

No sooner had the Quartile Capital dust settled than he SAA chairman is now attempting to gouge R256m from the airline’s meagre coffers to benefit a three roomed outfit called BNP Capital whose licence, incidentally, has been suspended by the Financial Services Board. Also, despite being told by Treasury and the DTI she is acting illegally, Myeni has been driving ahead with her own version of BBBEE – forcing Bidvest and Engen to allocate 30% of the profit from recently awarded contracts into a trust to benefit a list of names she has given them, among them one Sizwe Zuma.

https://www.biznews.com/undictated/...esh-myeni-corruption-at-saa-documentary-proof

“SAA Technical is not in control of its own security. If something as big as an ECG that weighs 3 tons and costs R15 million can go out undetected – and when you want to check CCTV cameras you are told that the cameras are not working – this tells you that theft is institutionalised in this place,” he said.

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/south-african-airways-corruption-runs-deep/

How much more evidence do you need? Dudu Myeni, the former head of SAA, was one of the major go-betweens where the ANC, SOEs and the Guptas were involved. You should be well aware of how much damage was wrought upon SA where State Capture was involved and the SAA was right in the middle of this, so I have no idea why you think this plays a minor role.
 
Why have transparent and well-governed countries - Austria, Australia and Germany - privatised their national carriers - Austrian Airlines, Qantas and Lufthansa respectively - when they have nothing to gain from them while South Africa has continued to prop up an unsustainable entity?

Because they are unsustainable, but the routes are well serviced by other role players. The problem in South Africa is that we do not have another role player to step up and SAA is unsustainable (no matter what!) so the unpalatable choice is to continue to try to prop it up or fail to have domestic air routes. It might survive if it dumped its international runs (which add to the unprofitability) but again, this would make it very difficult for South Africans to reach parts of the world, and worse, make it difficult for tourists to reach us, and the tourism industry is one of SA's major earners.

The SA gov and SAA are between a rock and a hard place. This is exacerbated by the other difficulties with incompetence and corruption, but again, for the last time, if that is ALL you focus on, then you are entirely missing the bigger picture which is far more relevant to why SAA can't just fold and close it's doors, why the government will (at least short term) continue to pump money into it.

And unless someone can come up with a solution that enables them to bow gracefully out while ensuring that tourism and domestic routes don't suffer then they will continue to try to prop it up.

So sure, you go ahead and focus on just one small aspect of the problem and ignore everything else because your prejudices won't allow you to see past the end of your nose.
 
Because they are unsustainable, but the routes are well serviced by other role players. The problem in South Africa is that we do not have another role player to step up and SAA is unsustainable (no matter what!) so the unpalatable choice is to continue to try to prop it up or fail to have domestic air routes. It might survive if it dumped its international runs (which add to the unprofitability) but again, this would make it very difficult for South Africans to reach parts of the world, and worse, make it difficult for tourists to reach us, and the tourism industry is one of SA's major earners.

You just spoke about privatisation in your previous response...

Qantas was Australia's national carrier. It was privatised. It continues to service domestic routes.

The continued propping up of SAA instead of selling it off or breaking it up also acts as a barrier for low-cost domestic airlines. In this way SAA is effectively a monopoly, gate-keeping SA's airspace.

SA would be 100% fine without SAA. The gaps will be filled.

And unless someone can come up with a solution that enables them to bow gracefully out while ensuring that tourism and domestic routes don't suffer then they will continue to try to prop it up.

See above. Sell it off, break it up, who cares, others will move in or a privatised SAA operating on a sustainable model will carry on meeting domestic requirements.

I'm done with the looting and corruption. I've provided more than enough evidence that the SAA, and particularly its former head, were at the centre of state capture. I can't help you if you refuse to acknowledge how destructive that has been for every SOE.
 
Excuse me, but when you and all your compatriots in this thread who have had a go at me, that STILL does not answer the question I asked.

Does it contribute to the mess, yes, is it the sole and only reason for the mess - no. And it is absolutely not the only answer to everything in the entire universe. And it is mind-boggling boring reading threads on this forum and trying to engage in a conversation - X happens - ANC / EFF / corruption / looting for pages and pages later with no other mention of anything else, and anyone who does try to raise some other point of discussion - dear god ANY other point of discussion - nope it's ANC / EFF / looting and corruption that is the only answer to absolutely everything - BORING!!!

So I'd like to suggest a rule - on any and all topics everyone commenting has precisely ONE post to bitch about ANC/EFF/looting/corruption/government then they either STFU or engage in some other points regarding the topic that contribute to a meaningful discussion instead of an ACN/EFF/looting/corruption bitch fest.
 
:ROFL:

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No.
I think what you're interpreting as a bitch fest is simply stating the facts.

- airlines are absolutely one of the hardest industries to turn a profit in whichever way you look at it.
- SAA's biggest woes, however, are not the standard market drivers at all, but the corrupt government that is tasked with running it.

Feel free to prove me wrong. And I have to ask, what prompted your EFF rant in an SAA thread anyway? Seems you're getting off topic here, not us lol.
Do you honestly believe state capture by ANC members is not the core issue at the heart of South Africa's current turmoil? Think hard before answering.

What EFF rant? All I have done is try to get a proper answer to a genuine question but the ONLY answer anyone gave was ANC/looting/corruption - which if it was true then SAA would be the only national airline in trouble. It isn't and people more knowledgeable than you and I put the blame on those market factors you pooh-pooh, and say that the corruption just makes it worse. Linked article in earlier post when I gave up trying to get any sense out of anyone.

When I first joined this forum it was an amazing source of information with knowledgeable people giving interesting insights on just about every serious topic - now - even when you ask a question you can suck eggs looking for a proper answer - it's all just bitch, bitch, bitch. And I stand by what I said - it is absolutely not the only answer to every damn thing in the entire universe. The corruption just makes everything worse, but the issues don't start and end with the corruption.
 
https://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/saa-pilots-up-in-arms-over-zuks-ramasia-appointment-26494398

SAA pilots up in arms over Zuks Ramasia appointment
Johannesburg - The SA Airways Pilots Association (SAAPA) threatened strike action over recent developments at the airline, including the appointment of 'inexperienced' Zuks Ramasia as interim CEO.

Ramasia was announced as the ailing airline's interim CEO following the resignation of Vuyani Jarana earlier this month.

Ramasia previously worked as SAA's General Manager of Operations.

SAAPA in a statement said recent developments at SAA, including Ramasia's appointment, were cause for profound distress and concern.

"Whilst SAA made some progress under Jarana, some of the most crucial issues remain unresolved. As a result, our airline has been rendered all but dysfunctional.

"The simple truth is that SAA will not survive unless critical operational and technical deficiencies are immediately addressed by a competent leadership team.

The union went on to say: "SAA needs an interim CEO with the appropriate experience and financial acumen to successfully run a major airline. Unfortunately, Ramasia is not that person

"Furthermore, many members of the current executive management team in place predate the appointment of Jarana as CEO. It is the same team that navigated SAA into its current untenable position."


The union said it had written to the SAA board to express its dismay at the appointment of Ramasia and the retention of SAA's underperforming management team.

The union is set to meet with the board this week in an attempt to resolve the crisis at SAA.

"Significantly, we are canvassing SAAPA members on the appropriate action to take. At this stage, we cannot rule out embarking on lawful industrial action - for the first time in our 80-year history - to force the necessary changes at SAA.

"SAA pilots will not sit back while the cycle of deterioration is allowed to continue. Like other unions, we have been forced to draw a line in the sand and to prepare to take action.

"Any action we decide upon will not be taken lightly. Our intention is not to add to the airline’s woes; it is to stop the further wastage of taxpayer's money and, ultimately, to put SAA on the path to recovery.

SAAPA added that it had made it clear to the board and the government, "that we will not accept the scapegoating of pilots that became prevalent in the Dudu Myeni era.

"The pilots of SAA perform an essential role in the airline, and the success of SAA is crucial to us. We are prepared to fight for the future of the airline that so many of us have dedicated our professional lives to."

SAAPA is not the first union to raise issue with recent developments at SAA, with the National Union of Metalworkers of South Africa and South African Cabin Crew Association picketing last week in protest against a "myriad of issues" at SAA and SAA Technical.

The unions initially gave SAA 48 hours to reinstate Jarana and demanded that he be given the necessary support to implement the struggling airline's long-term turnaround strategy. This was extended to a week following a meeting with the board.

The unions also said that Thandeka Mgoduso, Martin Kingston, Peter Tshisevhe, and Geoff Rothschild should all be removed from the board, accusing them of enabling corruption, failing their oversight role, interfering with operational issues, and ignoring forensic reports which allegedly flagged wrongdoing.
 
"Significantly, we are canvassing SAAPA members on the appropriate action to take. At this stage, we cannot rule out embarking on lawful industrial action - for the first time in our 80-year history - to force the necessary changes at SAA.

"SAA pilots will not sit back while the cycle of deterioration is allowed to continue. Like other unions, we have been forced to draw a line in the sand and to prepare to take action.

"Any action we decide upon will not be taken lightly. Our intention is not to add to the airline’s woes; it is to stop the further wastage of taxpayer's money and, ultimately, to put SAA on the path to recovery.

I doubt them striking for the first time in history will result in any changes at the top.
 
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