Scottish Referendum on Independence

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 59 53.2%
  • No

    Votes: 52 46.8%

  • Total voters
    111
  • Poll closed .
Interesting for anyone who wants to know about the Barnett Formula. I understand and accept the argument that areas which are remote (and there seem to be quite a few remote places in Scotland) will require additional funding for infrastructure upgrades and the like, but subsidising Scottish university fees? No thanks. It is a complete disgrace that Scottish and other students from EU member states get free tuition in Scotland but English students have to pay up to 9000 pounds per year.

Scottish Referendum: "My Barnett Formula needs to be tackled now - but no politician will"

Lord Barnett settles back into his armchair and rolls his eyes when I repeat Darling’s remark. “I was the first to give evidence to a House of Lords Select Committee in 2008 on the Barnett Formula,” he says. “It did a great deal of research and reported that Scotland gets £1600 more per head than England in public expenditure. That means they have been able to do things that we can’t like [cap] prescription charges and university fees. That’s not fair on English taxpayers.”

Such a disproportionate allocation of resources may go down well with Scots, Lord Barnett argues, many of whom have cited the formula as one of the reasons for remaining within the Union, but as evident this week, it causes huge resentment with English voters – 85 per cent of the UK population – who are being short-changed.

He must regret having given birth to this whole mess in the first place. “As Chief Secretary, you see, I was having a terrible time doing what I didn’t go into politics to do – cutting public expenditure,” he replies almost apologetically. “And I was having meetings with every departmental minister about their budget. They all wanted more money - Tony Benn and Barbara Castle more than most. I decided that I could get rid of at least three cabinet ministers – the secretaries of state for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – if I could settle on a formula for their budgets. So I set up this method for allocating public expenditure that the cabinet then agreed to. I never called it a formula. That only came later when Margaret Thatcher and John Major carried on with it.” (As did Tony Blair and Gordon Brown).

What Lord Barnett had known, but didn’t in the heat of the moment have either the time or inclination to tackle (this being the era of an IMF bail out of Britain and the “Winter of Discontent”), was that what he calls the “starting point” for the formula – ie the estimate of Scotland’s population – was wrong.

“I knew it used out-of-date figures. So Scotland was being overpaid, Wales was about even and Northern Ireland was very complex because of what was going on there then. But I left it as it was. My first priority was to make a system to save me trouble. The real problem,” he admits, with a wise-old uncle chuckle, “is that now no politician wants to tackle it. And I say that as someone who’s been in politics for 50 years. The Barnett Formula saves people trouble. It saves prime ministers worrying. That’s the way with politics.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...to-be-tackled-now-but-no-politician-will.html
 
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Thanks Dave, wondering when somebody would say something....

It is hard sometimes, when someone who appears to be totally ignorant throws a bunch of words together and tries to act knowledgeable Morty, he forgot to try and blame the lizard people who live in the Highlands and sacrifice to the deity Nessie of the Loch ;).

If every Protestant in Scotland had voted No that would have given them a majority without needing any other No votes...

Not to mention the Scots wanted to keep The Queen as head of State after independence (if it had happened).

Methinks he thinks Scotland is made up of the Northern counties above Eire ;).
 
It is hard sometimes, when someone who appears to be totally ignorant throws a bunch of words together and tries to act knowledgeable Morty, he forgot to try and blame the lizard people who live in the Highlands and sacrifice to the deity Nessie of the Loch ;).

If every Protestant in Scotland had voted No that would have given them a majority without needing any other No votes...

Not to mention the Scots wanted to keep The Queen as head of State after independence (if it had happened).

Methinks he thinks Scotland is made up of the Northern counties above Eire ;).

Well, I agree with him. It is. Scotland is very divided along sectarian lines and has exactly the same problems as Northern Ireland.

The Orange Lodge and Masonic influence cannot be played down easily, it is everyday life for people especially in the West. It is of course not EVERY Protestant, but it is pretty much every Rangers fan and that means hundreds of thousands.

Friends of mine were at the Orange Walk in Edinburgh at the weekend. 15,000 people turned up.

And did you see the news tonight? Fighting in Glasgow between yes and no supporters? Well it was of course Rangers and Celtic fans.

That's the divide he is talking about and for many, many people, that is their life and I understand his point completely.
 
Well, I agree with him. It is. Scotland is very divided along sectarian lines and has exactly the same problems as Northern Ireland.

The Orange Lodge and Masonic influence cannot be played down easily, it is everyday life for people especially in the West. It is of course not EVERY Protestant, but it is pretty much every Rangers fan and that means hundreds of thousands.

Friends of mine were at the Orange Walk in Edinburgh at the weekend. 15,000 people turned up.

And did you see the news tonight? Fighting in Glasgow between yes and no supporters? Well it was of course Rangers and Celtic fans.

That's the divide he is talking about and for many, many people, that is their life and I understand his point completely.

When last were you in Scotland?
 
When last were you in Scotland?

Last year and I'll be there again before the end of the year.

I grew up with this, trust me, it's real.

Look what happened last night in Glasgow. Guys in England shirts burning Scotland flags. That's Scottish guys! Rangers supporters who support England at football and not Scotland. I knkw people like this.

Similarly, I know Celtic fans, that's Scottish guys born and bred, who support Eire. It's the norm in the West and central belt. Look at Aiden McGeady, Scottish guy born and bred who plays football for Republic of Ireland. Not a surprise to anyone in Scotland.

So last night. I've got a couple of videos on my Facebook wall from people who were there, but don't take my word for it. Here's a report from the independent newspaper. My first hit on Google as I lie in bed this morning.

"Men, women in children draped in Union Jacks and carrying banners associated with Orange Lodges in Glasgow, said they were in the square to celebrate the "saving of the union". However the chants, songs and behaviour resembled a football crowd rather than a political march."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...police-in-glasgows-george-square-9745333.html

Resembled a football crowd because it was a football crowd.
 
Of course it's real.

My own Scottish ancestors, after union in 1707, were deeply divided ... half stayed staunch Presbyterians and the rest went socially-acceptable Anglican. Today almost all their descendants have no personal religion whatsoever, but the sectarian sensibilities and animosities remain.

My second son is named for an ancestor who's remains lie in a kirkyard in Twynholm.
 
Too busy fighting to bother to vote :D

Hehe.

There was a huge turnout in pro-Union areas, higher than pro-Independence areas.

In many places it exceeded 90 percent, breaking all records, and on the island of Jura, where George Orwell wrote Nineteen Eighty-Four, 100 percent of residents cast their votes.
.

As Zippy said, Glasgow had the lowest turnout at 75%.

Interesting statistics regarding Twitter:

"The Yes campaign was focused on Internet activism," said writer Ewan Morrison, who himself shifted from Yes to No. "But there are only 77,000 Twitter users in Scotland. They were talking to themselves."

Only 77 000? I'm surprised.
 
My apologies to all, not wanting to offend anyone...

What bothers me, and Spizz points it out, "It is of course not EVERY Protestant" , it grates me that one can tar all the Mason's and Protestants with one brush, it also grates me that one would look for someone to blame....

Here's my history for those of you that might wish to know a bit...

My late father was Protestant, from Kelvinhaugh in Glasgow, My mother was Catholic, from Leven, my father at the time was one of the youngest elders in the Kirk of Scotland, he was also a Mason , just like his father. When my father first took my mother home to meet the family, My grandfather was highly upset, really upset that his son wanted to get engaged to a Catholic, the rest of the clan were not that impressed either. They got married and due to two reason, religion and lack of work emigrated to SA.

As the years rolled on and my parents kept returning for visits, my Grandfather grew to love my mother and actually at the end the two were awesome friends.

When we were born, our parents never forced either of their religion apon us, for obvious reasons, it was up to us to decide when we were older. To this day, much to great horrors to local folks, in particular the Afrikaaners from the NGK, out three kids have not been baptised, this they can decide for themselves.

My father always claimed to be a Gers supporter but in actual fact unbeknown to most he supported the Third Lanark when they were still around.

Often in our discussions about sectarian violence in Glasgow, I would tell him that us out here in Africa we found it very strange how they were fighting over religion back in Scotland,"Well,", he said,"Back in Scotland, we find it strange how you are fighting over skin colour out here..." My father was eccentric, I am sure that is where my genes are from, Born blue, Mason, church going, married to a Catholic, Sang songs like the Sash, but ironically in his folk playing music days, knew a lot of Irish rebel songs.

Out in our mining town in the middle of the Namibian desert, an even stranger thing was happening, we had a very large number of Scottish and Irish expats working here, and the funny thing being in the pubs and house parties they all got on like a house on fire, often friends for life..... in fact it was strange that if they had been back in Scotland, they would not be sitting together, but out here, they had a common bond....

In my town in my youth, a good friend of my dad's was an Irishman from the North, he had to get out of Belfast quickly as he was wanted by the police for doing some terrible deed, this Catholic was my dad's mate.... hiding away in a remote corner of the world... he eventually returned to Belfast about a decade ago...... my other friend of dad's . well he was in the B specials in NI, it was strange to sit at a braai with these men, singing folk music, drinking, out here, religion was the least of their worries..

As a kid, at a braai, I once snuck up to the IRA chap, as kids do I pointed a plastic toy gun at him, the guy went of the rails almost put me through the fence..... seem's like he had seen some terrible things...

As for the Mason's, at the local Lodge in my town, one of the most dedicated Mason's was a Catholic... religion mattered not out here....

Oh! My dad's family back in Glasgow, they saw violence between the Rangers and Celtic, one of my dad's cousins,was killed after a match, put an axe through his head..... So I am in now way a fan of this bigotry, find it real sad that people of a great nation like Scotland should be divided because of religion..... if only they could see past it....

Well, that's my rant of my chest....... all I am saying, you cannot tar everyone with the same brush, my parents did'nt!

:(
 
I think a lot of Catalonians, Bavarians, Sardinians(Sardines?), Venetians, Basques, etc and dare I add some possessed Western Cape folk? were kind of hoping for this "Yes" vote camp to win. Wasn't to be! Moving on ...
 
SCOTLAND TO BE GRANTED GREATER AUTONOMY: COMMISSION

Scotland could be handed sweeping new powers including setting its own income tax rates and controlling welfare payments under a new plan unveiled by a government-appointed commission on Thursday.

"The recommendations in the agreement will result in the biggest transfer of powers to the Scottish parliament since its establishment," Lord Robert Smith, who chaired the group, said in Edinburgh.

The report follows up on a promise made by the leaders of Britain's three main political parties to grant Scotland greater autonomy ahead of an independence referendum in September.

Other proposals are control over air passenger duty and part of national sales tax, as well as the right for 16- and 17-year-olds to vote in Scottish elections, below the national threshold of 18.

Setting corporate tax will stay on a national level.

British Prime Minister David Cameron said he was "delighted" with the plan: "This is a good day for the UK... We are keeping our promise to the Scottish people.

He also promised to put forward a plan before Christmas to grant greater devolution to England -- a key demand from supporters in England who resent the powers being given to Scotland.

The government has come under pressure to deliver on its promise after a close-run victory for those who wanted Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom.

Devolution laws are now to be drawn up by January.

Scotland's devolved government is controlled by the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), whose ranks have swelled since the referendum.

"This process was always going to be difficult. It demanded a compromise from everyone involved," Smith said, adding: "They've shown that, however difficult, our political leaders can come together."

The right to full control over income rax rates was backed by the Cameron's Conservatives and the SNP but the opposition Labour Party long resisted the change.

"As a result of this agreement the parliament will be more powerful, more accountable and more autonomous," Smith said.

But he also cautioned on the time needed to implement reforms, saying: "Change of this magnitude cannot be rushed through."

Thursday's report is the result of more than a month of talks with representatives of the Scottish Parliament's five political parties and also took into account 400 submissions from organisations and more than 18,000 contributions from the general public.


Source : Sapa-AFP /gf
Date : 27 Nov 2014 12:4
 
SCOTLAND TO BE GRANTED INCOME TAX AUTONOMY

by Robin MILLARD

Scotland is set to get sweeping new powers including setting its own income tax rates, under plans unveiled Thursday by a cross-party commission on greater devolution.

"The recommendations in the agreement will result in the biggest transfer of powers to the Scottish parliament since its establishment," Lord Robert Smith, who chaired the commission, said in Edinburgh.

"The parliament will be more powerful, more accountable and more autonomous," he said, referring to the assembly set up in 1999 as part of the last major devolution campaign in Britain.

The commission was set up following a last-ditch promise made by the leaders of Britain's unionist three main political parties to grant Scotland greater autonomy if it voted "No" in the September independence referendum.

Other proposals include control over air passenger duty, some welfare payments and part of national sales tax, as well as the right for 16- and 17-year-olds to vote in Scottish elections, below the national threshold of 18.

Decisions on corporation tax will stay on a national level.

British Prime Minister David Cameron said he was "delighted" with the proposals.

"This is a good day for the UK... We are keeping our promise to the Scottish people," the Conservative leader said.

He also pledged to put forward a plan by Christmas to grant greater devolution to England -- a key demand from supporters in England who resent the powers being given to Scotland.

"The report today also makes the case for English votes for English laws unanswerable," he said.

Draft laws for greater Scottish devolution are to be drawn up by January 25.

The British government has come under pressure to deliver on its promise after a close-run victory for those who wanted Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom.

Scots voted by 55 percent to 45 percent to stay within the UK.

Scotland's devolved government is run by the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), whose ranks have swelled since the referendum.

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the proposals were "not real home rule".

"I welcome all new powers -- and pay tribute to Lord Smith -- but 70 percent of our taxes and 85 percent of welfare (are) staying at Westminster," the SNP leader said.

Deputy First Minister John Swinney lamented that it did not include several measures the SNP wanted, but welcomed the outcome "as far as it goes".

The right to full control over income rax rates was backed by Conservatives and the SNP but the opposition Labour Party long resisted the change.

Former Scottish Labour opposition leader Iain Gray, who sat on the commission, called the proposals "real change".

"These are real powers and they will make our parliament one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world," he said.

Chairman Smith said he accepted that some would think his recommendations had gone too far, while others would say they had not gone far enough.

"This process was always going to be difficult. It demanded a compromise from everyone involved," he said.

But he also cautioned on the time needed to implement reforms, saying: "Change of this magnitude cannot be rushed through."

Thursday's report is the result of more than a month of talks with representatives of the Scottish Parliament's five political parties and also took into account 400 submissions from organisations and more than 18,000 contributions from the general public.


Source : Sapa-AFP /gf
Date : 27 Nov 2014 14:11
 
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