Seriously who is coming up with these software developer interviews?

[marhsava]

Recruiter?
What's your problem with recruiters and perhaps you should define recruiter.

Do I recruit people for my team? Yes, I have for over 20 years now. We're a diverse, multinational company. We all work from home. I've worked from home for 20 odd years. Our team are mostly software developers and data specialists. We develop bespoke software for public and private sector clients. We have worked on projects in around 20 countries. Our team is small - 15-20 employees.

Your turn.

 

[cguy]

Which odds are those?

The odds of a company offering a 2-4 year guarantee failing between the time you start and the time your guarantee is over.

 

[zimspy]

View attachment 1561288

I swear it's every single damn time.

 

[zimspy]

Recruiter?
What's your problem with recruiters and perhaps you should define recruiter.

Do I recruit people for my team? Yes, I have for over 20 years now. We're a diverse, multinational company. We all work from home. I've worked from home for 20 odd years. Our team are mostly software developers and data specialists. We develop bespoke software for public and private sector clients. We have worked on projects in around 20 countries. Our team is small - 15-20 employees.

Your turn.

I will state my problem with recruiters. This is more towards dedicated recruitment companies. Not recruiters within say a company like DVT. Those are a little bit better although not great either.

The recruiters from straight up talent acquisition companies are annoying for several reasons. One is they will ask you if you're interested in a job as an airplane pilot when your CV clearly says you're a truck driver. I guess because they are all transportation vehicles.

Two is never ever telling you a salary for the job. They either won't tell you at all, or give you a weird range that makes no sense. Like it's between 30K and 60K a month. That's useless information. That's because their entire job is low balling you and taking the difference.

Three is the crap skills matrix. They give you a dozen forms to fill out for them to collect your data. By the time you get to interview with the actual company, you'd be drowned in forms.

 

[McRuder]

I work in a high performance technical team in one of the top 10 companies in the world. I do the interviews, and make the hiring decision, for the team, and sometimes related teams. An interview with me is only 30 minutes on Teams or Zoom. In the interview I usually ask a few relevant questions about you, your history, your plans, and your interests. I also only ask 3 technical questions based on your stated skills and experience, relevant to the job we have on offer. I do not ask for homework or tests - I do not believe it works. Obviously our HR and the provider agencies have their red tape, there is nothing I can do about that, but I only accept unedited original CV to review and pick the candidates. I would estimate that my refusal rate on CVs are around 95%, and the same on the interviews - most common reasons are faking/lying, inconsistencies (stated experience and task levels does not match skills), and irrelevant CVs (not the fault of the candidate). A point I should make here: the last person I hired got all 3 tech questions wrong, but he is currently one of my best performing team members. The last person I fired, was secretly running a side business, and did not deliver on his tasks on time.

I have not done job hunting in the open market for some time, but when I did I refused to do home assignments or assessments like hackerrank etc. (I did try some and passed them anyway, just so that I would know if I could). I also don't do on-site initial interviews, remote only. It is my opinion that companies that do those assessments or require in-person interviews do not know how to assess people, have bad hiring practices, and insecure incompetent management. I don't want to work for them anyway.

It may be difficult, and it may take some time, but the right fit for you will come along. In hindsight I should never have worked for some of the companies I worked so hard to get a job with, I would have better off waiting for the next one.

 

[lkpat]

I will state my problem with recruiters. This is more towards dedicated recruitment companies. Not recruiters within say a company like DVT. Those are a little bit better although not great either.

The recruiters from straight up talent acquisition companies are annoying for several reasons. One is they will ask you if you're interested in a job as an airplane pilot when your CV clearly says you're a truck driver. I guess because they are all transportation vehicles.

Two is never ever telling you a salary for the job. They either won't tell you at all, or give you a weird range that makes no sense. Like it's between 30K and 60K a month. That's useless information. That's because their entire job is low balling you and taking the difference.

Three is the crap skills matrix. They give you a dozen forms to fill out for them to collect your data. By the time you get to interview with the actual company, you'd be drowned in forms.

Without standing up for annoying recruitment agencies, their modus operandi is NOT low-balling you to take the difference. The higher your CTC, the higher their com. It works on a percentage. Recruiters get the salary range from the client. That range will often depend on the seniority of the person being hired. If it ranges from 3 years working experience to 20 years, expect the salary to vary as well. Sometimes when hiring you have to broaden the scope and consider reshuffling internal roles to meet the need. We have limited talent who want to move.

On my own point, recruitment is part of my job as management, I'm a tech person - systems architect along with other roles, but I do my fair share of interviewing and recruiting. I work for a small firm. We don't have full time recruiters.

 

[lkpat]

Okay Karen

Make sure you don't reply to any of my ads on MyBB with PM.

 

[SauRoNZA]

I also don't do on-site initial interviews, remote only. It is my opinion that companies that do those assessments or require in-person interviews do not know how to assess people, have bad hiring practices, and insecure incompetent management. I don't want to work for them anyway.

Same, with one exception.

Before we do a final offer we invite the candidate for lunch with the team and everyone who can attend does so as a meet and greet, with a tour of the offices (if and when you would choose to use them) that gives a bit more of a “walk the talk” of our company culture.

This is 99% about the candidate getting to see what it’s like to work for us and allowing them to choose us, as by then we’ve already chosen them.

With a high performing team it’s crucial that people want to be a part of it.

 

[McRuder]

Same, with one exception.

Before we do a final offer we invite the candidate for lunch with the team and everyone who can attend does so as a meet and greet, with a tour of the offices (if and when you would choose to use them) that gives a bit more of a “walk the talk” of our company culture.

This is 99% about the candidate getting to see what it’s like to work for us and allowing them to choose us, as by then we’ve already chosen them.

With an high performing team it’s crucial that people want to be a part of it.

I was referring to initial interviews (meaning the first one). And yes, we do the meet & greet thing on-site too, before parties sign paperwork. We call it "come and work with us for a day".

 

[Mystic Twilight]

If your task or challenge can't be completed by an experienced developer in 3 to 4 hours, you're just pushing away developers like me who know the value of their skills and wouldn't do this.

But that's the point (in some cases)? Rightly or wrongly, some places don't want your experienced-developer-who-know-their-value that has an associated expensive price tag, they want someone that is "good enough" to grind out code at minimum expense. Yes you can make the argument about how your above average expertise will probably save the company money over the long run and you're time efficient and yada yada yada, some companies don't want that for your salary range.

Consider seeing these type of interviews as an early warning sign to not work there if their material doesn't match your expectation and just move onto the next company. If no company fits, start your own.

 

[My_King]

You guys talking about recruiters reminds me of these koents:



Left home at 8AM for the interview at the company at 9AM.
Would have been a 30 minute drive. Would have had more than enough time to sit at the clients parking area thinking over my life.

**** Kelly phones me, "am I on my way?", "did I prep?".... 15 minute call resulting in the police pulling me over. Got a ticket for driving and talking on my cell.

Then she had the audacity to say, client tells me you were 5 minutes late....

Teef

 

[lkpat]

But that's the point (in some cases)? Rightly or wrongly, some places don't want your experienced-developer-who-know-their-value that has an associated expensive price tag, they want someone that is "good enough" to grind out code at minimum expense. Yes you can make the argument about how your above average expertise will probably save the company money over the long run and you're time efficient and yada yada yada, some companies don't want that for your salary range.

Consider seeing these type of interviews as an early warning sign to not work there if their material doesn't match your expectation and just move onto the next company. If no company fits, start your own.

Pretty much this.
I don't want a primadonna. I want someone who appreciates being employed.

 

[lkpat]

**** Kelly phones me, "am I on my way?", "did I prep?".... 15 minute call resulting in the police pulling me over. Got a ticket for driving and talking on my cell.

Then she had the audacity to say, client tells me you were 5 minutes late....

Teef

That's on you.
Next time don't be so sensitive to what they want. If the company can't handle you being 5 mins late for an interview when there's a valid excuse, you don't want to work for them.
Kelly is on this forum.

 

[zimspy]

Pretty much this.
I don't want a primadonna. I want someone who appreciates being employed.

Yeah I'm really not here to appreciate being employed. I'm here to do my job and get paid for it.
This type of culture I wouldn't enjoy. There's no room for being a primadonna in software development.

If me saying I know my value and my worth means to you I'm a primadonna then there's something being misunderstood somewhere.
When I say I know my value I mean I may be a rundown Toyota Corolla 2002 but I'm still worth my value.

 

[lkpat]

Yeah I'm really not here to appreciate being employed. I'm here to do my job and get paid for it.
This type of culture I wouldn't enjoy. There's no room for being a primadonna in software development.

You just haven't met them. Not sure what makes software development special that you think it's immune to personality disorders.

If me saying I know my value and my worth means to you I'm a primadonna then there's something being misunderstood somewhere.
When I say I know my value I mean I may be a rundown Toyota Corolla 2002 but I'm still worth my value.

But you're too good to show the client your value with a 1.5 hour coding session as part of the interview... right?

 

[rh1]

Unrelated industry i.e not IT, my techical question was too develop a work plan for the department, this type of work depending on complexity can be invoiced from R50000 to R100000, and the company in question would need a complex solution, i.e. about 4 weeks work after hours in my spare time, (I dont know how to half ass work), so I would have done it properly.

To this day I think, they just wanted a free solution, and I did not bother to continue and cancelled my interviews.

There is a very straight forward ways to test people technical abilities. You need about 2 to 4 hours. Give the person a task that takes that long to do and evaluate the work delivered. You can quickly spot the bull shitters from those who know what they are doing.

 

[zimspy]

You just haven't met them. Not sure what makes software development special that you think it's immune to personality disorders.

But you're too good to show the client your value with a 1.5 hour coding session as part of the interview... right?

1.5 hours is good. Please do recheck my main post. My gripe is tasks that will take an experienced developer more than 4 hours to put together. To make that even worse, given the DVT interview, I have to create accounts and add banking information to the platforms I am meant to use.
That's beyond ignorant of whoever set up theses tests. It's practically being tone deaf.

I will not mind having a one on one coding session or solving couple of problems in 1 hour 30 minutes. But with that there also lies a major problem with our industry. We think we are too special. Accountants, teachers, nurses, heck even doctors cheat at exams. There's a thriving market of people selling course assignments. Yet somehow, those professions don't have to put up with technical interviews. The qualifications plus work experience is good enough.
Then what makes writing code so special? You are going to try and tell me a nurse who has the life of someone in their hands, or a teacher whose work outcome will decide your entire life has a lesser important job than a few lines of code? I could make an argument for a truck driver having a more critical job than mine. If I screw up, it's a few dollars lost. If a truck driver screws up, his 18 wheeler could mow down a lot of people and serioulsy injure or kill. Trust you me, a lot of truck drivers bought their licenses and bribe their way through certifications.

The industry is turning us into primadonnas by making it seem like our jobs are so special. Let us embrace it then!

 

[Herr der Verboten]

A little while ago I applied for a developer position at Discovery. Before getting told how much I would even get paid, I was hit with a 51 question aptitude test. It had absolutely nothing related to software development at all, just a BS IQ style test.
How on Earth does that have anything to do with writing code and who came up with that test?

I also applied for a job with DVT. Before getting told how much I would be getting paid, I was hit with a technical interview challenge. No biggie, I will check it out. And oh my gosh I was so disappointed.
They required me to create a weather app using the OpenWeather API. To show how much they don't even care, they ask job seekers to create accounts with OpenWeather and Google Places and add banking information to get API keys! It's like the company isn't even bothered to make their own proper technical interview.

The task itself is also too much work. It requires you to design the app flow, implement the screens, consume the APIs, cache local data for when there's no internet connection. That much work at my own job would be broken down into tasks with requirements among different people or stretching several sprints.

There's been more companies like Ikhokha who apparently don't know what MVVM is but I digress.

I'm not being tone deaf here. When the chips are down, you do what you must to put bread on the table.
At the same time though, giving this much work to every candidate is ridiculous.
I'm also not a junior. I have 7 YOE and an extensive person portfolio. I get there are fakers but I don't see someone faking it for that long and have so much to show for it.

This is turning into a rant, but yeah, who the heck is coming up with these job interviews?

I would have a hard time hiring yourself reading through this. While you are correct that time wasting is non efficient you also need to know if someone can fit within the team and therefor aptitude tests. You can befok with what you can do but a **** fit.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

1.5 hours is good. Please do recheck my main post. My gripe is tasks that will take an experienced developer more than 4 hours to put together. To make that even worse, given the DVT interview, I have to create accounts and add banking information to the platforms I am meant to use.
That's beyond ignorant of whoever set up theses tests. It's practically being tone deaf.

I will not mind having a one on one coding session or solving couple of problems in 1 hour 30 minutes. But with that there also lies a major problem with our industry. We think we are too special. Accountants, teachers, nurses, heck even doctors cheat at exams. There's a thriving market of people selling course assignments. Yet somehow, those professions don't have to put up with technical interviews. The qualifications plus work experience is good enough.
Then what makes writing code so special? You are going to try and tell me a nurse who has the life of someone in their hands, or a teacher whose work outcome will decide your entire life has a lesser important job than a few lines of code? I could make an argument for a truck driver having a more critical job than mine. If I screw up, it's a few dollars lost. If a truck driver screws up, his 18 wheeler could mow down a lot of people and serioulsy injure or kill. Trust you me, a lot of truck drivers bought their licenses and bribe their way through certifications.

The industry is turning us into primadonnas by making it seem like our jobs are so special. Let us embrace it then!

Kobayashi Maru: Sometimes you also need to test what the applicant will do when he/she can't finish. However, this can also be done in 30 minute window with a 60-90 minute job...

 

[Herr der Verboten]

AI is here…

(AI) Jesus! Please take the wheel!!!

Problem is that this will have outcomes that isn't always desirable, in fact probably most of the time disastrous.