Seriously who is coming up with these software developer interviews?

[lkpat]

Ah yes, I have to spend 1.5 hours on a test then 3 different interviews and finally when we talk money it's "Oops, we posted the wrong bracket, we can only pay you x% of that, take it or leave it".

Well then someone is being a poep.
You don't do the practical before you're sure it's a good fit in theory for both.
Why would you make someone sit for a practical if tou weren't fairly sure they're what you're looking for?

 

[SauRoNZA]

You can't serve two masters.

Maybe I'm changing direction and don't know it is low. Maybe the recruiter tells me the market is stagnant cause he knows I'm really unhappy in my current role, maybe I was laid off and it's my only option? Many possible ways that recruiters can, an do screw candidates. Why? Cause they serve the company, not the candidate.

I have never experienced what you are referring to.

External recruiters (not internal talent acquisition) have always gotten me a better deal, not a worse one.

They get a solid percentage cut (5% last I saw) of your annual which is a significant amount of cash if they get you even 10% more.

It’s no different than estate agents who will try to sell for as much as possible to increase their gains.

But anyone really good at this kind of job knows exactly what’s realistic and what isn’t and maybe you’ve just played the unrealistic card every time and the recruiter has brought you back to reality.

 

[cguy]

No.
You, the recruiter and the company serve yourselves first.
Tell me why if you disagree.

Agreed. The recruiter just wants the deal to go through. This typically means arguing for the candidate to accept less and simultaneously convincing the company to offer more, until there’s a match.

 

[cguy]

I have never experienced what you are referring to.

External recruiters (not internal talent acquisition) have always gotten me a better deal, not a worse one.

They get a solid percentage cut (5% last I saw) of your annual which is a significant amount of cash if they get you even 10% more.

It’s no different than estate agents who will try to sell for as much as possible to increase their gains.

But anyone really good at this kind of job knows exactly what’s realistic and what isn’t and maybe you’ve just played the unrealistic card every time and the recruiter has brought you back to reality.

It is no different to estate agents who also won’t try to sell it for more to increase their gains.

Their revenue is roughly: commission_of(sum(price*prob_of_sale))

It is far more time effective for them to increase prob_of_sale than price. A good salesperson can get say prob_of_sale from 10% to 30% (3x commission), they’re never going to get 3x the price. A key way to increase prob_of _sale is to convince the seller to take a lower offer and/or the buyer to pay more.

Ie, it’s all about volume.

 

[lkpat]

Agreed. The recruiter just wants the deal to go through. This typically means arguing for the candidate to accept less and simultaneously convincing the company to offer more, until there’s a match.

Agree but to add..
It all depends on what information all parties have. If the recruiter knows the client budget stretches further (even if the candidate is a bit more junior) you can be sure the recruiter will be pushing for more moolah. Also, if they have two candidates, one more junior who accepts less, they will push the senior one if they're happy they're in the salary range... this isn't about low-balling, it's about finding a compromise on all sides while fighting your own corner.

If you can't negotiate, you can't blame others.

 

[lkpat]

It is no different to estate agents who also won’t try to sell it for more to increase their gains.

Their revenue is roughly: commission_of(sum(price*prob_of_sale))

It is far more time effective for them to increase prob_of_sale than price. A good salesperson can get say prob_of_sale from 10% to 30% (3x commission), they’re never going to get 3x the price. A key way to increase prob_of _sale is to convince the seller to take a lower offer and/or the buyer to pay more.

Ie, it’s all about volume.

Right, and if you, as seller, are low-balled and you get offended, well boohoo lol. Just find another agent and have another go or be patient and wait. Nobody looks at you and your offering and goes "here's a sucker"... and even if they do, well it's still YOUR call at the end of the day, especially if you know your worth as everyone seems to be suggesting.

 

[SauRoNZA]

A key way to increase prob_of _sale is to convince the seller to take a lower offer and/or the buyer to pay more.

Exactly.

It works both ways because the person in the middle doing the sale knows which one is more realistic and likely to happen.

It’s not because they WANT to get you a worse deal.

Also it’s always up to the candidate/recruitee to simply say no, come back with a better offer.

Somehow people have this notion in their head that they can’t say no and can’t ask for more and the first offer is the only offer.

 

[Napalm2880]

They get a solid percentage cut (5% last I saw) of your annual which is a significant amount of cash if they get you even 10% more.

Going rate for recruiters is 13% to 20% of a candidates annual.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Going rate for recruiters is 13% to 20% of a candidates annual.

There we go, supports my statement even more.

Don’t know where I got 5% from, probably the estate agents then.

Besides, at the end of the day the recruiter doesn’t control the budget. They have some parameters to work within and that’s that.

 

[Napalm2880]

There we go, supports my statement even more.

Don’t know where I got 5% from, probably the estate agents then.

Besides, at the end of the day the recruiter doesn’t control the budget. They have some parameters to work within and that’s that.

Most corporates and nowadays even SMEs will determine a "salary band". If your salary fits in those bands, they will demand your payslip and offer you 10% on what you're currently earning (provided it still remains within the upper limit of the bands).

I recently had a recruiter ask me for my payslip before I even gave her my CV. It's mental out there folks.

 

[Napalm2880]

Don’t know where I got 5% from, probably the estate agents then.

Those are now up to 7.5%

Makes me wonder why I got into IT.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Most corporates and nowadays even SMEs will determine a "salary band". If your salary fits in those bands, they will demand your payslip and offer you 10% on what you're currently earning (provided it still remains within the upper limit of the bands).

I recently had a recruiter ask me for my payslip before I even gave her my CV. It's mental out there folks.

And like I said before it’s completely in your control to reject the offer and say do better.

And they pretty much always do. Within the salary band of course.

Why people feel there’s only ever one offer on the table I don’t understand.

 

[Napalm2880]

And like I said before it’s completely in your control to reject the offer and say do better.

And they pretty much always do. Within the salary band of course.

Why people feel there’s only ever one offer on the table I don’t understand.

You can, but the 10% on current is close to policy at most companies. I believe this is due to recruiters simply finding a goldilocks number that will close them a deal without annoying the company that hired them.

To reject an offer you also have to have steady employment (or big nuts).

 

[SauRoNZA]

You can, but the 10% on current is close to policy at most companies. I believe this is due to recruiters simply finding a goldilocks number that will close them a deal without annoying the company that hired them.

To reject an offer you also have to have steady employment (or big nuts).

I have only ever once accepted the first offer changing jobs and that was to my current company where I made it clear what I wanted up front and actually ended up getting more due to some extra benefits coming into play.

Every time I’ve changed jobs it’s been for around a 40% increase on gross.

Obviously if you aren’t working that’s a whole different story but then the +10% on a payslip is irrelevant.

 

[lkpat]

To add to the conversarion...
I think what some people don't get is that it doesn't matter how confident YOU feel about yourself and your skills, the person hiring you has no reference if you've never met before. The easiest people to hire are those who have been recommended by existing staff or other known entities, but if we've never met, I am taking a big gamble if all I have to go on is your word or the word of others I don't know.

I've had to use the three month probation clause on one employee in 20 years but I was thankful for being in a position to use it. I've also seen first hand how deceptive sociopaths can be. It's hard to comprehend when you've not seen a good bul$#1tter first hand.

Some years back my mom hired a sociopath who came with excellent references and cost the company a big whack in recruitment agency fees (early 90s). They were apparently a top notch salesman, which came across in the interview.

Shortly after hiring them, a client recognized him and asked my mom if they knew his history and that he'd been jailed for motor vehicle theft. He had stolen a merc at one of their dealerships and driven it through the showroom floor glass. He had also recently been fired at another firm for theft and sabotage. He tried to destroy all of their data before going. When my moms firm wanted to fire him, they asked the agency for the paperwork they would have got him to sign and apparently they had nothing with his signature on... fortunately they got it right based on the fact that he'd misrepresented himself and lied on his CV.

It's just a reminder that every now and then you get a crazy who can be very convincing... so if I ask you to actually solve a technical problem that's in line with the kind of work you will be expected to do, forgive me for taking 1.5 hours of your life before making the call.
It's not foolproof, but it's one tool to help convince me you're not stretching the truth.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

If an interview requires me to actually have more than one or two commits, the test is too long imho.

Amazon's test was by far the longest I did, and the entire process just turned me off from finishing it.
Company I am currently at was 3 hours (you could do more or less, I ended up 4 hours), but first had a culture / role interview, where it's made clear what I was going to be working on, what day to day looks like, benefits, etc., then you get sent the tech interview.
Second interview is just going through the test, explain thinking, and then if you have questions and stuff, and right after was offer (which already before the first interview bracket was given, and already said in second interview that top of bracket, etc., so negotiation is a quick process).

South African interviews often tend to follow the American style too much, going FAANG style with hackerrank/trick question coding stuff, a vast majority of businesses don't need people like that, and it's more important to check the entire process of how they think and fit in the company, rather than get them to memorize those questions/answers.

My impression in Europe is that it's a lot more just a discussion in what you've worked on, challenges, and just talk your way through it, company fit is paramount and way of thinking, second interview is near always company showcasing/selling themselves, but my experience is a bit biased as only did senior Europe side.

In trying to find a sponsorship for a visa for Aus, I had to write a small but complete web app. In the end I failed because not enough unit test coverage. I was pretty desperate, so spent quite a bit of time on that thing.

I had one technical NL interview as well, where they asked some logic questions and then I had to do a code review. That was a pretty cool interview and afterwards I got a long paragraph about why I didn't match what they were looking for. I really appreciated that.

For the job I have now, I had a quick chat with the CEO where he asked how I would build some app and the typical challenges questions. Then in the technical interview they just told me how they did things and never asked me anything.
We had some ex-colleagues in common, so I guess that helped.

As for tests, one test I liked including is a relatively simple piece of convoluted code just adding ints that they have to figure out. If people can't read that, they would have trouble reading somewhat convoluted legacy code.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

I will state my problem with recruiters. This is more towards dedicated recruitment companies. Not recruiters within say a company like DVT. Those are a little bit better although not great either.

The recruiters from straight up talent acquisition companies are annoying for several reasons. One is they will ask you if you're interested in a job as an airplane pilot when your CV clearly says you're a truck driver. I guess because they are all transportation vehicles.

Two is never ever telling you a salary for the job. They either won't tell you at all, or give you a weird range that makes no sense. Like it's between 30K and 60K a month. That's useless information. That's because their entire job is low balling you and taking the difference.

Three is the crap skills matrix. They give you a dozen forms to fill out for them to collect your data. By the time you get to interview with the actual company, you'd be drowned in forms.

Or they will call you and ask you information that is clearly stated in your CV.

The recruiter who got me my previous and current job called to chat about what I want out of a job, not about what is already in my CV. Both times he got me interviews with a company who are great places to work.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

- most common reasons are faking/lying, inconsistencies (stated experience and task levels does not match skills),

Interesting "inconsistency" that happened to an ex-colleague - when a company is acquired by another, the employees keep their existing start dates. So, when an older company is acquired by a younger company, some employees may have been employed by a company longer than it has existed for.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

You guys talking about recruiters reminds me of these koents:

View attachment 1561334

Left home at 8AM for the interview at the company at 9AM.
Would have been a 30 minute drive. Would have had more than enough time to sit at the clients parking area thinking over my life.

**** Kelly phones me, "am I on my way?", "did I prep?".... 15 minute call resulting in the police pulling me over. Got a ticket for driving and talking on my cell.

Then she had the audacity to say, client tells me you were 5 minutes late....

Teef

Let that be a lesson to you. Don't answer the phone while driving.

 

[zimspy]

Most corporates and nowadays even SMEs will determine a "salary band". If your salary fits in those bands, they will demand your payslip and offer you 10% on what you're currently earning (provided it still remains within the upper limit of the bands).

I recently had a recruiter ask me for my payslip before I even gave her my CV. It's mental out there folks.

Everytime this happens I say eff you very much I don't want to work for you.
If I'm feeling malicious I just make up a fake payslip with like twice what my comp is for the fun of it and watch them run for the hills.