Slavery In A New Form

I agree kilo39.

The anthem of Africa is entitlement, rather than accomplishment through effort. Am watching the BBC series, what the ancients did for us. The modern world the developed countries enjoy was through great leaders and hard work. The most successful African countries are those which were under Western rule the longest. If only one country remained a colony it would have been one of the richest in the world, due to the vast resources in Africa. Take Hong Kong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong
Hong Kong was under United Kingdom administration from 1842 until the transfer of sovereignty to the People's Republic of China in 1997.

The point being, one great government, can solve all of an African nation's problems.
 
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So, instead of posing the question: should the West apologise for slavery? we ought to call for an end to modern-day slavery – the exploitation of the human and material resources of Africa by the West.


Just out of curiosity who exactly is the "WEST" these days?. I was under the impression even South Africa is pretty much either close or already a "western society" . Can someone please name these "western" countries who must apologize?

Is China a western country?. All these Zims and Nigerians and Mozambicans "fleeing" into South Africa....anyone actually believe they are NOT being exploited RIGHT HERE?

Also the part in bold, what do you call it if the GOVERNMENT is ALLOWING "the west" [whoever they might be] to exploit their resources [by filling their own pockets] ? What do you call if the GOVT. is exploiting their OWN labour and resources?

I think there's a vital diff between blaming "the west" and TAKING FREAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN SCREWUPS. This "blame the west" is not going to solve the problem, AFrican nations will actually need to DO SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES.....
 
Do you know what guerrillas often say? They claim that their rebellions are
invulnerable to economic warfare because they have no economy, that they are
parasitic on those they would overthrow. The fools merely fail to assess the
coin in which they must inevitably pay. The pattern is inexorable in its
degenerative failures. You see it repeated in the systems of slavery, of
welfare states, of caste-ridden religions, of socializing bureaucracies-in
any system which creates and maintains dependencies. Too long a parasite and
you cannot exist without a host.

-- The Stolen Journals

We created the parasites. Still we can't wean parasites if they do not admit to what they are.
 
Partial Quote:

With the crude form of slavery, slave masters had to train their slaves after acquisition. Today, Western industrialists have a perfect deal, they recruit highly trained professionals such as doctors, engineers, nurses and accountants from Africa.

They do not compensate African countries for taking these qualified professionals who were trained at huge cost.

So, instead of posing the question: should the West apologise for slavery? we ought to call for an end to modern-day slavery – the exploitation of the human and material resources of Africa by the West.

The export of raw material to the developed countries can only serve to stunt growth and job creation on the African continent.


Just a few thoughts on the above:
Excluding SA which other African countries have tertiary educational institutions with international recognition and are able to produce these "highly trained professionals such as doctors, engineers, nurses and accountants from Africa". And how many African countries actually have to import these professionals from the West (or East or anywhere else) because they can not develop their own ability in this regard.

AFAIK to export anything from any country requires some form of approval from some kind of goverment structure. I don't think it is just a "few heads of state" that are quilty - most are and that include the bulk of their goverment structure that was put in place by their own populations acceptance of that countries version of democracy.

Now regarding slavery: AFAIK Liberia was established to repatriate freed slaves from the USA more than 200 years ago and have been financially supported by the USA ever since ie. they were never a colony. To date Liberia do not have a central electricity network never mind the rest. However they do have time and money to be almost continually at civil war. I wonder what the cost is in terms of human and material resources as well as stunting growth and job creation? And how do they go about this? By using children as slaves and soldiers and ........... Read the link below and make up your own mind.

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/liberia0204/6.htm

And this is not the exception - just look at a map of Africa and try and pick a country that did not have some form of serious conflict or failed the criteria of a stable society. And let's start a tread on the definition of a stable society - then I won't be flamed for not providing a link;)
 
I suggest people [like whoever wrote the article and everyone who continues to blame the west for all their problems]


http://www.kalahari.net/bk/product.asp?sku=30482860&showannotationtype=2&toolbar=none

"Capitalist ******" - by Chika Onyeani [nigerian born author]

The Black Race is a consumer race and depends on other communities for its culture, its language, its feeding, and its clothing. Despite enormous natural resources, Blacks are economic slaves because they lack the 'devil-may-care' attitude and the 'killer-instinct' of the Caucasian, as well as the spider web economic mentality of the Asian.

It's in exclusive books. READ IT and learn to take responsibility.
 
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I wouldn't read any book with "******" in the title. It speaks volumes about the author and suugests he is obsessed with his negroid identity and blames white people for everything.

Judging by the qote
the 'killer-instinct' of the Caucasian
I think I may be right. Oh, and the Caucuses, where Caucasians come from are at the Southern end of Russia.
 
What is your "real cures"? Is it highly toxic anti-retroviral drugs? And all poor people must be given this drug to take every day untill they die? It is only a slavemaster that can design such a scheme.

Yes Johan... all the scientists got together at their evil lair and thought of a way to sell expensive drugs to the unsuspecting public. Omg! Why didnt I think of that! You sir, are a fool.

What worries me is that you think that you can pretend to me that you really believe in such nonsense.

After your last comment dont worry about what I worry, you are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic there.

I have always propagated food to keep your body strong.

You mean if we eat... we get strong? Why didnt they tell me all those years I was in school. Ive been starving myself to get strong for the last 30 years. Dammit, I knew I was doing something wrong.

It is only when we are unable to get sufficient food of highly nutritious quality that I will reconmend to you to supplement your diet to stay healthy.

Give a man a fish... teach a man to fish... Im sure you know the story.

Dude, ure a loony.
 
It is true Africans need to take responsibility for themselves. In particular here in SA. There is no excuse for staying oppressed and that goes for any oppressed people be it financially or otherwise.

Having said that, when said oppressed people decide to make a change, do not as the former oppressor get in the way. Sad as it may be your opinions do not count. This is not fair obviously but neither was the situation that landed us here.

You cannot under any circumstances do something to a people you shouldn't have done then turn around and tell them how to react to it. You do not have that right and it is not for you to point fingers. Africa was never afforded the opportunity of developing independently from colonization so it finds itself where it is because of many things, but mostly colonization. One cannot under estimate the damage that is done to a marginalized people generation after generation. That added with peoples own self destructive ways give birth to a very grim situation. Both the oppressor and the oppressed need to take responsibility.

However this is not impossible to fix, the West* does not give its monies out of good will, they benefit. If nothing was to be had from Africa then nobody would donate it's that simple. The very glorified west* that is spoken so highly off was the same west that enslaved and colonized to begin with. They are not owed gratitude just like the Africans are not owed aid.

As for those who believe the world would have fallen into darkness had it not been for the west,please get over yourselves. The technologies you enjoy today are made possible by the far east, every single component that comes together to make that computer you type on comes from the east. You are not a representation of a geographical area, you are one person with an opinion and that's that.
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As for the your* government thing, as long as its not ours* then you do not take responsibility and share in it with the rest of the people of the country. If you feel that you have nothing in common and share nothing with the people who also suffer under the same government you are more than welcome to emigrate. That goes for black and white people equally.
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I wouldn't read any book with "******" in the title. It speaks volumes about the author and suugests he is obsessed with his negroid identity and blames white people for everything.

Judging by the qote I think I may be right. Oh, and the Caucuses, where Caucasians come from are at the Southern end of Russia.

Yup. "killer instinct"? You mean like Sierra Leone, or Rwanda, or Mugabe, or Idi Amin... yeah I get it. Blame blame blame.
 
I wouldn't read any book with "******" in the title. It speaks volumes about the author and suugests he is obsessed with his negroid identity and blames white people for everything.

Judging by the qote I think I may be right. Oh, and the Caucuses, where Caucasians come from are at the Southern end of Russia.

18 world 'groups' of humans.

Wiki has an example classifying humans into 5 main catagories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neighbor-joining_tree.jpg

Many classifications are very similiar to these, but don't necessarily have only 5 main groups. If you are white you are probably caucasian.
 
Having said that, when said oppressed people decide to make a change, do not as the former oppressor get in the way.
If the West got out of the way, it will take 30 years before they can come back recolonize the ashes.

You cannot under any circumstances do something to a people you shouldn't have done then turn around and tell them how to react to it. You do not have that right and it is not for you to point fingers.

Why not? If I hit someone over the head, on purpose I can still ask him not to do the same to me, if that person has more dignity that I do, he won't.

Africa was never afforded the opportunity of developing independently from colonization so it finds itself where it is because of many things, but mostly colonization.

Africa has become independent, against the advice of the West. There was a time in Kenya were you could have mistaken it for a 2nd Britain, today it literally is a garbage dump 2 feet deep. I lived there. They had 30 years.

A former French colony, Haiti became the first independent black republic and the only nation ever to form from a successful slave rebellion. Haiti became the second non-native country in the Americas (after the United States) to declare its independence, on January 1, 1804.

One cannot under estimate the damage that is done to a marginalized people generation after generation. That added with peoples own self destructive ways give birth to a very grim situation. Both the oppressor and the oppressed need to take responsibility.

No, generation after generation benefited from colonization, that is why South-Africa is the only ray of hope.

However this is not impossible to fix, the West* does not give its monies out of good will, they benefit. If nothing was to be had from Africa then nobody would donate it's that simple.

The West gives money because they are generous, because they have a "help the under-dog" mentality. It is like helping a begger that keeps insisting. They give out of their goodwill, lately they give to Africa in the hope that the problems of the poor, disease and crime, does not spread to their doorsteps. I think their generosity has been worn out by corruption.

The very glorified west* that is spoken so highly off was the same west that enslaved and colonized to begin with. They are not owed gratitude just like the Africans are not owed aid.

Never heard an African leader stand up in a summit and thank the West for their help and sit down again.

As for those who believe the world would have fallen into darkness had it not been for the west,please get over yourselves. The technologies you enjoy today are made possible by the far east, every single component that comes together to make that computer you type on comes from the east. You are not a representation of a geographical area, you are one person with an opinion and that's that.

Manufactured in Asia since the people there are productive. Technologies have been developed mostly by Jews. Watch more History, Discovery and BBC to get your facts straight. We stand on the shoulders of old Asia and modern Europe, accomplishments made in the past 5000 years.

==============================================
As for the your* government thing, as long as its not ours* then you do not take responsibility and share in it with the rest of the people of the country. If you feel that you have nothing in common and share nothing with the people who also suffer under the same government you are more than welcome to emigrate. That goes for black and white people equally.
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Yes we are leaving, that is the point of the article, they called it slavery, I call it freedom.

There are many examples were Europeans were taken as slaves, by Europeans, even non-europeans.
Slavery is no excuse. Africans were just the last group to experience it, many generations ago.

My great grandmother, had 9 of her 10 siblings killed in concentration camps. She was almost starved to death. At that time we are all on equal footing, in numbers and economic standing. Today there are 5 million white people, we only had enough children to pass on the wealth for 3 generations. in 3 generations we changed our fate. We planned ahead and worked hard to reach our goals.

America was a colony, you never hear them blame the British for their troubles.
 
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The West gives money because they are generous, because they have a "help the under-dog" mentality. It is like helping a begger that keeps insisting. They give out of their goodwill, lately they give to Africa in the hope that the problems of the poor, disease and crime, does not spread to their doorsteps. I think their generosity has been worn out by corruption.
Are you insane?
Where do you think most of the worlds diamonds come from? Platinum? Gold? Some Oil? Who do you think sells guns to Africa? Generosity you say, are you being for real?

here are many examples were Europeans were taken as slaves, by Europeans, even non-europeans.
Slavery is no excuse. Africans were just the last group to experience it, many generations ago.
You deserve your own spot in a museum. The difference there is that it was other white people enslaving white people not based on colour... What happened here in Africa was white people enslaving black people based on the colour of their skin. They did not care about what tribe etc you belonged too. Being black was cause for them to enslave you...
How that is not obvious to you is further proof why it will be very difficult for people to ever reconcile. Its not that you're evil, you're just useless at thinking. I won't hold it against you though... ;)

My great grandmother, had 9 of her 10 siblings killed in concentration camps. She was almost starved to death. At that time we are all on equal footing, in numbers and economic standing. Today there are 5 million white people, we only had enough children to pass on the wealth for 3 generations. in 3 generations we changed our fate. We planned ahead and worked hard to reach our goals.
sigh... read reply above...

America was a colony, you never hear them blame the British for their troubles.
This is a rare talent you have that needs to be documented. So called American's were not the native people of that land. Asking them who they chose to blame is irrelevant. They were settlers on American soil and did what white people did every where they went, they oppressed and enslaved the people. They went as far as Africa and the east to get more people to enslave. They have no cause to complain because they are now the richest people on the planet. Ask the Cherokees and Apaches on how their doing and you may find they don't share your sentiments.

Manufactured in Asia since the people there are productive. Technologies have been developed mostly by Jews. Watch more History, Discovery and BBC to get your facts straight. We stand on the shoulders of old Asia and modern Europe, accomplishments made in the past 5000 years.
No you arrogant invalid. Please go to the US and spend some time in Silicon Valley CA and you'll see there are almost more asians there than anyone else. The biggest electronics firms in the world are asian. Ever heard of Samsung, Panasonic, Matsu****a, Toshiba, Sony (who own Paramount, Columbia, New Line, like half of hollywood) etc...
Ever heard of Taiwan Semi Conductor Manufacturing Company?
Don't make it obvious how ignorant you are. You are too eager to praise the great West when you don't know what makes it tick...

Before you even attempt to educate me attempt to read.
Earliest form of Mathematics are about 1850BC from Egypt, followed by Babylonean, Indian, then Chinese. Greek and Hellenistic Mathematics, Classical Chinese and Indain mathematics. Arabic and Islamic Mathematics, then from 300 to year 1400 followed by Medieval European Mathematics...
So no turn of your television set, unplug the DSTV decoder. Put away the Xbox and try getting educated. You are not a representation of the modern Western world, and if you were we wouldn't be having this debate.
Now could you please make a point. :)
 
I wish black people would get over this slavery issue (everyone else has.) And no, it was not only black people that suffered slavery (although they did suffer the mechanised version.) ALL people suffered slavery, white, yellow, and green. Slavery was common for battlefield captives or even the paying of debt and goes right back to the beginning of time. So get over it already (the only people you are holding back is yourselves.)

And if you want the west to stop 'exploiting' the resources then DO something about it (ie, produce the local goods for export) instead of constantly complaining and bitching about it.

And notably: the worst forms of existing slavery are still in Africa (and a few other places like India: child labour.)

Fix it instead of complaining about it (only you have the power.) (Which you give to other people by the constant complaining and whining.)

//and yes, people leave africa because of the conditions created by African people: these are YOUR governments after all.
Which is probably the main reason I think Mbeki is nuts for wanting to build South Africa into an export based economy. We can make money from it now, but ultimately we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Skeptik said:
I wouldn't read any book with "******" in the title. It speaks volumes about the author and suugests he is obsessed with his negroid identity and blames white people for everything.

Suits yourself [i'm not going to argue with ignorant people who judge books by their covers ;) ] . The book is written FOR BLACKS [not whites], so in fact it quite clearly emphasize that "blaming the west/whites" while at the same time ALLOWING them to drill your oil,mine your diamonds, reap all your cocoa is the height of stupidity and avoiding responsibility.

Point is, last i checked the entire africa is now run by BLACK govts. Why aren't they drilling their own oil and selling it like any other freaking country outside Africa? Why aren't they mining their own diamonds? Why aren't they making their own coffee and chocolates ?

The answer to those questions will 99% of time be "we are enslaved and the evil west is exploiting us blah blah" . Instead of those govt. EDUCATING their people to do those things themselves, they make war and play political blame games [as in Zim].

You know what is going to become of Zim? Those people will be slaves for the next 50 years......who's fault is that? The west? The whites? If the US/UK helps Zim they are blamed for "interfering" , if they don't they are blamed [for not fixing the past] ...WTF...Africa is such a bloody idiotic mess.
 
Are you insane?
Where do you think most of the worlds diamonds come from? Platinum? Gold? Some Oil? Who do you think sells guns to Africa? Generosity you say, are you being for real?
Generosity. There is an over supply of diamonds, which is why the West is forced to exchange the diamonds for guns, since that is the only currency the coup leaders accept. Obviously the West should be generous and see their diamond trade collapse because of warring African states, out of goodwill.

The West is generous, once you withdraw all the aid, Africa will starve and the diamonds, gold and platinum will be much easier to get. If the diamonds, gold and platinum was the ultimate goal, the West would govern the countries by now.

You deserve your own spot in a museum. The difference there is that it was other white people enslaving white people not based on colour... What happened here in Africa was white people enslaving black people based on the colour of their skin. They did not care about what tribe etc you belonged too. Being black was cause for them to enslave you...
How that is not obvious to you is further proof why it will be very difficult for people to ever reconcile. Its not that you're evil, you're just useless at thinking. I won't hold it against you though... ;)
Africa was weak, defenseless, easily exploitable and showed little resistance. That was their identifiable characteristic, skin was not an issue. Your own government discriminates against people, based on skin color.

Slaves were the weaker, losers in wars. Whichever characteristic which made them easier identifiable was brought to light. Religion was also used, in the case of Jews. Still, which ethnic group is arguably the richest in the world? Israel is an economic success, why is Africa still wallowing in the dust? Least Africans did not have their skin turned in to lampshades. Japan was nuked, still they are a success.

This is a rare talent you have that needs to be documented. So called American's were not the native people of that land. Asking them who they chose to blame is irrelevant. They were settlers on American soil and did what white people did every where they went, they oppressed and enslaved the people. They went as far as Africa and the east to get more people to enslave. America never blamed the Brits, the previous government never blamed the Brits.
In the late 15th century, Europeans (Spanish and Portuguese first) began to explore, colonize and conquer the territory in the Americas. The European colonists attempted to enslave some of the Native Americans to perform hard physical labor, but found them unaccustomed to hard agrarian labor and so familiar with the local environment that it was difficult to prevent their escape. Their lack of resistance to common European diseases was another factor against their suitability for slavery.

They have no cause to complain because they are now the richest people on the planet. Ask the Cherokees and Apaches on how their doing and you may find they don't share your sentiments.
Americans exterminated the natives, something the Boere did not do. The native people still do not work as hard, there are many other minority groups, Asians, in America which has made a success, through hard work. The `natives` can do the same.

No you arrogant invalid. Please go to the US and spend some time in Silicon Valley CA and you'll see there are almost more asians there than anyone else. The biggest electronics firms in the world are asian. Ever heard of Samsung, Panasonic, Matsu****a, Toshiba, Sony (who own Paramount, Columbia, New Line, like half of hollywood) etc...
Ever heard of Taiwan Semi Conductor Manufacturing Company?
Don't make it obvious how ignorant you are. You are too eager to praise the great West when you don't know what makes it tick...
Why are those companies so deeply entrenched in the West? It is thanks to the free market economy, political stability and education. Go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_valley for a list of American companies. Based on the work of Americans, the Asian countries became leaders. Why did Africa not do the same? America is still the greatest contributor to technologies. Even if those technologies are made by people of Asian decent. They are still Americans. West refers to the predominant Western culture as much as the people, to the ideals of working hard, taking responsibility, planning ahead and improving your life.

Before you even attempt to educate me attempt to read.
Earliest form of Mathematics are about 1850BC from Egypt, followed by Babylonean, Indian, then Chinese. Greek and Hellenistic Mathematics, Classical Chinese and Indain mathematics. Arabic and Islamic Mathematics, then from 300 to year 1400 followed by Medieval European Mathematics...
I said: "We stand on the shoulders of old Asia and modern Europe, accomplishments made in the past 5000 years." Medieval European mathematics, made all the difference.

So no turn of your television set, unplug the DSTV decoder. Put away the Xbox and try getting educated. You are not a representation of the modern Western world, and if you were we wouldn't be having this debate.
Now could you please make a point. :)
I don't have DSTV, out of a selection of 20TB on the Varsity network, I chose to watch the BBC series. I don't have an Xbox either. I have a degree, since I battled through higher grade maths, like the other Afrikaans students did. I took extra courses, finishing an effective 2 degrees in 3 years. I'm educated.

Sources:
The Europeans had also noted the West African practice of enslaving prisoners of war (a common phenomenon among many peoples on all of the continents). European colonial powers traded guns, brandy and other goods for these slaves, but this had little effect on the Arabian and African trade. The African slaves proved more resistant to European diseases than indigenous Americans, familiar with a tropical climate and accustomed to agricultural work. [1] As a result, regular trade was soon established

Back to my own family, enough kids to transfer wealth among generations. If you were to divide the current population of black people, to the size of the white population, there would be a tenfold increase in wealth among them. Grandparents had nothing and were starving, today we are relatively wealthy. It started with my grandfather, becoming a millionaire in the 1930s. It took us 1 generation.

Africa must take responsibility for the current state of the continent. Your negligible arguments, is even further evidence, of the culture to not take responsibility.
 
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Africa was never afforded the opportunity of developing independently from colonization so it finds itself where it is because of many things, but mostly colonization.

This seems like a cop-out. Didn't all nations have an equal starting point?
 
Have you stolen your degree?

Go to a hospital, and take away the medicine which does save lives and cures diseases, created by the West. You will see thousands die. There is almost no contribution by Africans to medicine. You would not have even survived childhood if not for the vaccines you had.

Anti-retroviral drugs extend the life and increase the quality of those with AIDS. People would not take it otherwise, it costs money.

How can you speak such utter nonsense? Then you want to claim that you are educated.

I am seeing thousands of people die on the so called western "medicines". The whole concept of allophatic medicine were probably designed to enrich the slavemasters. How can you cure a disease by treating the symptoms? Diseases can only be cured by removing the underlying causes of the disease.

At what backyard university were you educated?

http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/
 
How can you speak such utter nonsense? Then you want to claim that you are educated.

I am seeing thousands of people die on the so called western "medicines". The whole concept of allophatic medicine were probably designed to enrich the slavemasters. How can you cure a disease by treating the symptoms? Diseases can only be cured by removing the underlying causes of the disease.

At what backyard university were you educated?

http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/

quack
 
How can you speak such utter nonsense? Then you want to claim that you are educated.

I am seeing thousands of people die on the so called western "medicines". The whole concept of allophatic medicine were probably designed to enrich the slavemasters. How can you cure a disease by treating the symptoms? Diseases can only be cured by removing the underlying causes of the disease.

At what backyard university were you educated?

http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/

I had malaria before. If my symptoms, fever, were left untreated, I would have died.

NWU - North West University, Potchefstroom campus.

Again I say:
Go to a hospital, and take away the medicine which does save lives and cures diseases, created by the West. You will see thousands die. There is almost no contribution by Africans to medicine. You would not have even survived childhood if not for the vaccines you had.

Herbs and vitamins often does not even address the symptoms and does not provide a cure. If you take Western medicine, which often is a concentrated improved form of the herbs and such, it actually cures something.

Antibiotics, cures people. Beat that nancy.
 
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