Slavery In A New Form

[Angelo]

4% of South-Africans pay income tax, 90% are white. As we pay the taxes the government should listen, once we leave as 1 million of us have done already, as I plan to also. There will be very little left to keep the economy going.

The SA economy hasn't suffered much with the emigration of whites, to the contrary it has seen unprecedented growth.

 

[JayM]

Angelo, do you think the rest of the whites should leave? Would that be beneficial to the economy long term?

 

[Johan Beaurain]

Medicines should not do people harm

I had malaria before. If my symptoms, fever, were left untreated, I would have died.

Yes you are probably correct if you want to look at it like that. But fever is just the mechanisms that the body use to fight the underlying condition that is posing a threat. Generating heat make it so uncomfortable for the symptoms that lives on that condition, that the symptoms becomes crippled and unable to manifest itself properly. The underlying condition is still there and the threat is still there for a repeated attack of what you call malaria-disease.

NWU - North West University, Potchefstroom campus..

Did they not teach you how to think for yourself?

Again I say:

Herbs and vitamins often does not even address the symptoms and does not provide a cure. If you take Western medicine, which often is a concentrated improved form of the herbs and such, it actually cures something.

Antibiotics, cures people. Beat that nancy.

Herbs and other nutritious food are suppose to be used in very subtle dosages. I think that we should try and do things in moderation. Herbs and food should not be propagated to be used like bullets and antibiotics. We should never try and justify a situation where we are doing people harm.

 

[lion_fish]

The SA economy hasn't suffered much with the emigration of whites, to the contrary it has seen unprecedented growth.

Hahahah!!

You obviously dont understand economics. I suggest you read up on this "unprecedented growth".

Its very easy to grow an economy when you dont pay anything out for the maintenance of basic infrastructure (Eskom etc...) just like its easy to make a huge profit in business if you dont pay your bills and shaft your employees.

Problem lies in how long it takes before it all starts to fall apart and your services get shut off.

The evidence is everywhere, SAA, Telkom, Eskom etc...

How is your "unprecedented growth" going to happen if there is no electricity to power our factories and refineries... What about the small businesses affected daily by rolling blackouts?

Its only a matter of time until this country goes the way of zimbabwe. We may not be running down that path but we are definitly strolling it. It is only taking longer because we have much more resources to plunder (corruption?).

Think about it.

 

[Johan Beaurain]

Medicines should not do people harm

I had malaria before. If my symptoms, fever, were left untreated, I would have died.

Yes you are probably correct if you want to look at it like that. But fever is just the mechanisms that the body use to fight the underlying condition that is posing a threat. Generating heat make it so uncomfortable for the symptoms that lives on that condition, that the symptoms becomes crippled and unable to manifest itself properly. The underlying condition is still there and the threat is still there for a repeated attack of what you call malaria-disease.

NWU - North West University, Potchefstroom campus..

Did they not teach you how to think for yourself?

Again I say:

Herbs and vitamins often does not even address the symptoms and does not provide a cure. If you take Western medicine, which often is a concentrated improved form of the herbs and such, it actually cures something.

Antibiotics, cures people. Beat that nancy.

Herbs and other nutritious food are suppose to be used in very subtle dosages. I think that we should try and do things in moderation. Herbs and food should not be propagated to be used like bullets and antibiotics. We should never try and justify a situation where we are doing people harm.

 

[VanZan]

The SA economy hasn't suffered much with the emigration of whites, to the contrary it has seen unprecedented growth.

A large enough economy have a momentum of its own but if you really understood what is required to sustain such a growth you would not make such a statement. Three cornerstones are infrastructure, education and R&D. Under the leadership of the ANC, the freight rail network have degenerated to virtually a non functional entity. SAA are reported to be in difficulty. The road network are being destroyed by heavy haulage because the rail network does not function, but no effort are being made to maintain never mind upgrade the road infrastructure. And the electricity capacity is exactly twelve years behind on instruction from Parliament to ESKOM not to increase capacity. What is going to support the growth?

The matric results of the educational system speaks for it self.

R&D is more significant. Our nuclear research capacity is virtually non-existent. What happend to our military development capacity? The CSIR have closed or privatised large parts of their research programmes. Even the educational facilities appears to be doing less and less research mainly due to lack of technical staff. And the Agricultural Research Council bare exists and have reduced their research capacity by orders of magnitude.

And why would the goverment launch a program to invite skilled professionals back to SA and also talk about importing the same from overseas. They know that the writing is on the wall.

If you don't prepare the foundations properly, the walls will come down.

Lastly - Zim decided to encourage whites to emigrate and it did not take long for the facts of economy to assert itself. The strange thing about things such as medicine, physics, engineering, mathematics, economy, industry etc is that they are truely non-racial and don't care about the colour of your skin - they only required hard work, skill, capacity and knowledge.

 

[Angelo]

Angelo, do you think the rest of the whites should leave?

Those who want to leave should leave (if you don't want to be here you shouldn't be here) and those that want to stay should stay. It's a free world, "global village" and all that.

 

[Angelo]

How is your "unprecedented growth" going to happen

It has already happened. Obviously with all this growth there is going to be a strain on infrastructure, the previous government is to blame for this (yes you read that right) because they designed the infrastructure with only enough capacity to handle the needs of a small section of the population, in other words they lacked vision. Nevertheless the current government has to clean up this mess, the fact that they didn't cause it is no excuse and indeed they are making an effort to improve the situation.

 

[Skeptik]

The SA economy hasn't suffered much with the emigration of whites, to the contrary it has seen unprecedented growth.

Can you prove that statement. There is no logic in it.
#
Who's to say the economy might not be better with all the people who have left - and all sorts have taken the gap, not just white people (your enemies?).
#
Mostly skilled SA people have better prospects abroad, so what you claim isn't logical.

 

[lion_fish]

It has already happened. Obviously with all this growth there is going to be a strain on infrastructure, the previous government is to blame for this (yes you read that right) because they designed the infrastructure with only enough capacity to handle the needs of a small section of the population, in other words they lacked vision. Nevertheless the current government has to clean up this mess, the fact that they didn't cause it is no excuse and indeed they are making an effort to improve the situation.

Of course... how could i be so stupid!

Blame it on apartheid.

(13 years is obviously not enough time to build more infrastructure. G0d help us build world class stadiums in 3 years...)

 

[edc]

Angelo, you do not respond to direct questions. You are wrong and ignoring my questions does not change it. You do not act stupid.

The Afrikaans minority has had 13 years of introspection, where I used to think otherwise, I've been forced by the events of late, and people like you to re-evaluate my current position. I told Wizard earlier, that where I used to dislike people with racist agendas, I find myself siding with them against you. I know I should not let you force me to that position, but you are arrogant with no substance.

My familty is leaving RSA, a school teacher, 2 accountants, a Masters English and an attorney. How is that in any way beneficial to RSA? I have economics 3, you do not, once you do, you will realise Trevor Manual, great leader as he is, will not save RSA. I would vote for him.

The previous government has a surplus of power, because of record profits (not investing in assets) and record bonus salaries, the whole economy will suffer as a result. I was in grade 10 when I said that, today I'm proved correct.

In Kenya, every year the government would tell the natives, that when the British ruled there were only 2000 schools, and today there are 3000. What you and the Kenyan natives don't realise is, if the Brits were ruling there would have been 10000 schools. The same goes for your unprecedented growth, 1/5 of the tax paxing population left, that means the budget for South-Africa shrunk by 1/5th.

Johan Beaurain, go hug a tree.

 

[Angelo]

Can you prove that statement. There is no logic in it.

South Africa's economy is currently in its 25th quarter of uninterrupted economic expansion, a record upturn that started in September 1999.
source

This is one of many reports in this regard, I'm surprised someone like you is unaware of this information even though you spend so much time online. "You can take a donkey to the water but you can't make it drink"

#
Who's to say the economy might not be better with all the people who have left -

I don't care about speculation and "what might have been", the economy is growing and that's what is important. Emigration is neither new nor unique to South Africa, it will continue as long as knowledge is a valued commodity.
#

Mostly skilled SA people have better prospects abroad, so what you claim isn't logical.

You might want to familiarise yourself with the simple concept of common sense before you tell me about "logic".

 

[VanZan]

It has already happened. Obviously with all this growth there is going to be a strain on infrastructure, the previous government is to blame for this (yes you read that right) because they designed the infrastructure with only enough capacity to handle the needs of a small section of the population, in other words they lacked vision. Nevertheless the current government has to clean up this mess, the fact that they didn't cause it is no excuse and indeed they are making an effort to improve the situation.

To merely gush rubbish in an attempt to avoid the facts of an argument is the same tactic small children use to try and win an argument - by shouting the same words over and over as loud as possible. Unfortunately it does not make it true.

If the economy has apparently "grown" and the growth is sustainable (not artificial through the export of raw products with little value addition) why have the unemployment rate not changed significantly?

ESKOM had a significant excess capacity in 1994 with various planning scenarios to address various economic growth patterns. All of these were put on hold by the ANC goverment while they tried to decide how to handle all of this responsibility. They failed to make any decision about anything.(remember all the debates about privatisation) Around 2001 Parliament was informed that if ESKOM is not allowed to invest in infrastructure, powershortages would be immenent. Despite this warning, they instructed ESKOM not to invest in any capacity building. And this is exactly where we are today - no capacity.

The railway network is not operating at maximum capacity - it is not operating period. Yet prior to 1994 the railway network was considered to be a significant contributor to the economy. Through mis-management this backbone of the economy have been reduced to skeleton of its former self.

The road infrastructure have been evaluated by goverment agencies as well as NGO's - all coming to the same conclusion. The cost to restore the road infrastructure to it's previous condition (pre 1994) would amount to billions of rands. This does not consider the upgrade and expansion to accomodate the hundreds of thousands of new vehicles sold annually. But I suppose that if highways with potholes are good for the rest of Africa, why should we South Africans be so snobbish as to insist upon the standards set by an Apartheid regime?

 

[Skeptik]

Angelo, I've driven a coach and horses through your theories, but you remain unconvinced or unwilling to be convinced.

I'll try again.
(true story)
A man has a business. He has 25 aircraft, which he uses at a rented airfield. Fifteen years ago he only had 5. He thinks he is very successful.
An analyst visits and says he should have 50 aircraft and should have bought the airfield (now worth 10 Million) when he had the chance.

Now do you understand?

Fact: People have left. Up to 1M of them.
Fact: Many of those that left were white.
Fact: White people had a privileged education at one time.
Fact: The country is doing well economically.

Conclusion: The country would be doing better if the 1million white people with their superior education had stayed.

[Pls, pls, I dare u to even try and argue against sheer logic]

 

[marine1]

Skeptik if he dares argue, just give up. It is pointless trying to convince someone like that

 

[Angelo]

Angelo, I've driven a coach and horses through your theories, but you remain unconvinced or unwilling to be convinced.

I'll try again.
(true story)
A man has a business. He has 25 aircraft, which he uses at a rented airfield. Fifteen years ago he only had 5. He thinks he is very successful.
An analyst visits and says he should have 50 aircraft and should have bought the airfield (now worth 10 Million) when he had the chance.

Now do you understand?

Fact: People have left. Up to 1M of them.
Fact: Many of those that left were white.
Fact: White people had a privileged education at one time.
Fact: The country is doing well economically.

Conclusion: The country would be doing better if the 1million white people with their superior education had stayed.

[Pls, pls, I dare u to even try and argue against sheer logic]

It seems you missed the following comment and/or its point:

I don't care about speculation and "what might have been", the economy is growing and that's what is important. Emigration is neither new nor unique to South Africa, it will continue as long as knowledge is a valued commodity.

You would have rather preferred for the SA economy to suffer as a result of the Emigration of whites so that your Afro-pessimism could be validated.

You have failed to refute the fact that the economy is growing...something that I posted with a supporting link. I'm telling you that the economy is growing but you insist the growth would have been better if white emigrants had stayed (something that I don't dispute), but that is neither here nor there. Every country's economy would have been in a better state had they retained all their professionals but that is impractical, what matters to the country is progressive positive growth despite the emigrations.

And you appear to have a rather embarassing habit of heaping praise on your own posts, why don't you let others do it if it's deserved? (even if it's from Marine1 )

This debate is just going around in circles and I just don't have the time for that, the thread can rage on and on but if it's pointless then I stop participating, that's how I am (you seem to be the opposite)

So feel free to continue "driving" those horses if it helps stroke your little ego.

 

[edc]

Angelo, you don't realise who said what anymore.

 

[Rooinek]

White South Africa is a fear ridden society

I think all will agree that most of white South Africa is ridden with fear. This fear tends to permeate through views on any South African issue. This fear tends to make most of my white brother's fear that there is a high possibility of the "sh$t hitting the fan". Actually, in some cases some the belief is that the sh$t is hitting the fan. That is why there is soo much pessimism. In any case, it is impossible to be optimistic if you belief things will go bad. Why are things going to go bad?Because the black man is in charge (atleast of the government). There is an inherent belief in some white quarters that black denotes disaster.

This belief is borne out of consistent aparthied era propaganda about the "swart gevaar" which persistently spewed a message that blacks representated danger and savagery, and as such they needed to be controlled through repressive policies such as group areas act, bantu education, etc. Unfortunaltely, this message was too well sowed that even a relatively peaceful (meaning minimum white deaths, because, a lot of blacks certainly died) transition, an internationally acclaimed statesman president who personified democacy and humaneness (Mandela), "rainbow nation" society building efforts, and persistent stellar economic performace has failed to destroy this myth.

The gut feel from most white quarters is that something must go wrong, regardless of their improved economic well being, as such issues of spiralling crime, are seized with vigour as a revelation come true that things are going asunder. Of course their belief is that whites are the primary targets merely because of their race. Regardless, of evidence pointing to the fact that if you are poor, black and live in a economically depressed area, you are more prone to violent crime.

As such Angelo, do not be surprised by the kind of heat you seem to have generated.

The main issue that preoccupies my mind is always, how do undo this fear. How do we deal with this racial divide?, how do we deal with this irrational white anger fuelled by fear, which I agree is growing?

The only answer that comes to mind is through a conceited effort of "know thy neighbour".

If we take an effort to know our neighbours of a different hue, we will, look beyond race to the person within, that is a given. By knowing thy neighbour, I mean a real effort at trully understanding each other that goes beyond stereotypes and skin colour.

From there we will move beyond discussions on slavery that only serve to reinforce racial stereotypes.

 

[BobbyMac]

Rooinek: you are quite right that too few people in SA are willing to get to know each other, and that most humans would probably prefer to live without fear. However, what you fail to note is that South Africans of all races are living in one of the most dangerous countries in the world. South Africans are being led by an incompetent single party government that consistently and undeniably pushes forth its own agenda. You so skillfully allude to white South African fear in your passage as the only fear, yet me (who you know as not white) also lives in fear - in fear of my wife or daughters being raped, my car being hijacked yet again, or me being robbed at gunpoint in my own home yet again. Do not speak of fear as if it belongs only to the white man. I live an exciting life - but it is marred by fear.

 

[Syndyre]

If we take an effort to know our neighbours of a different hue, we will, look beyond race to the person within, that is a given. By knowing thy neighbour, I mean a real effort at trully understanding each other that goes beyond stereotypes and skin colour.

From there we will move beyond discussions on slavery that only serve to reinforce racial stereotypes.

I don't agree with everything else you said, but this is so true, and I think would work in a much more global sense too. If we actually know the people on the other side of the world we can understand them better and see they're not actually all that different, not just this mythical group that's out to get us etc.