Social grants now support 15.2m

Nico, as I already posted, I'd prefer a free market system with as little interference from government as possible. So my answer to your question is yes, 100%...
 
Nicodeamus said:
In fact, if you remove the welfare state, the unions and CCMA I bet our unemployment will be over within 4 years time.
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If you removed social assistance and unions, then the state would be overthrown within 12 months. It is unfortunate this cannot be displayed using a virtual scenario generator.
 
We are lagging behind the world. A large part of the economic crisis in Europe is rooted in their social grant system which was unsustainable but got current and past leaders in power... Favours for votes in short...

They are scaling back now... and we haven't cottoned on to the problem yet and will have to walk the same doomed road it seems... We are the LEAST SUITED for this kind of welfare and are going APE **** about it like there is no tomorrow!!!! SAD!!!! :(
 
Nicodeamus said:
Not entirely true, these grants get spend almost immediately, basically all that does is transfer the wealth from the poor to the rich. If I give you something for free you don't take care of it as well as when you would when you worked for it. Furthermore it destroys any entrepreneurial incentive in these communities. This can be confirmed if you note that South Africa is the most unequal society in the world.

I agree that you need to help these people and what better way than to help them help themselves. As I pointed out earlier the whole crux of our policy in this country is not aimed at uplifting the poor at all and these grants only try to address a symptom not a root cause.
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Nice. Just one question. How do you do it?

It's easy to say all that, but how exactly do you get people that have no education, no property, no money and no skills to become entrepreneurial? Of course the Gov are treating the symptom, the problem is they have no clue how to treat the cause. And it's not just here, the whole world has this problem. It's easy to say kill the grants, but what specifically replaces the policy that can provide sustainability and keep these people alive.

If you can provide a specific model, then I'm pretty sure you will become a very valuable member of humanity, akin to Ghandi, et al. Until then, I doubt you'll see anything change. The whole problem is that Gov doesn't just have a responsibility to tax payers, but to all SA'ns, to insure humane conditions. It is a mandate as laid out in the constitution.

I'm not arguing with you, and agree with you about the policy not uplifting the poor, just that I would like to know what can be done to change that. I mean I can go through a grand in a couple of days, that's all these people are getting for a month. It's a crap policy that is not going to create wealth or add to the economy but what else can Gov do to change the situation? I guarantee anything you can come up with will be far more expensive then what Gov can actually afford.
 
B.O.F.H. said:
http://www.fin24.com/Budget/Mini-Budget-2011/Social-grants-now-support-152m-20111025

How can any vaguely intelligent person think this is even vaguely sustainable?

There are more people ON social welfare than there are people paying tax....
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see
Burden too big for tax payers (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=157959)
Schussler said that while Manuel had allocated a large amount to social expenditure in the budget, it had to be kept in mind that there were 13 million people on social welfare.

"And there are only 5.3 million tax payers - so it's a burden on the tax payer - that worries me.
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Milano said:
If you removed social assistance and unions, then the state would be overthrown within 12 months. It is unfortunate this cannot be displayed using a virtual scenario generator.
Click to expand...

That is why I said you need to roll it back, I'm well aware of the social affect that such an entitlement loss will have, but if you start by introducing tax breaks and limiting unneeded government and removing the red rape on our legislation then I do believe it can work.
 
Ronjay said:
Nice. Just one question. How do you do it?

It's easy to say all that, but how exactly do you get people that have no education, no property, no money and no skills to become entrepreneurial? Of course the Gov are treating the symptom, the problem is they have no clue how to treat the cause. And it's not just here, the whole world has this problem. It's easy to say kill the grants, but what specifically replaces the policy that can provide sustainability and keep these people alive.

If you can provide a specific model, then I'm pretty sure you will become a very valuable member of humanity, akin to Ghandi, et al. Until then, I doubt you'll see anything change. The whole problem is that Gov doesn't just have a responsibility to tax payers, but to all SA'ns, to insure humane conditions. It is a mandate as laid out in the constitution.

I'm not arguing with you, and agree with you about the policy not uplifting the poor, just that I would like to know what can be done to change that. I mean I can go through a grand in a couple of days, that's all these people are getting for a month. It's a crap policy that is not going to create wealth or add to the economy but what else can Gov do to change the situation? I guarantee anything you can come up with will be far more expensive then what Gov can actually afford.
Click to expand...

It will take time, you need a roll back policy, I'm in favour of having a government that always moves towards getting rid of unneeded functions. Tax the people less, balance your budget and spend less money year by year. It will take time, but the deeper we go into the whole socialistic government protects the people system the more difficult it will be to dug ourselves out.

The challenge is finding the right strategy, you start off by removing the mechanisms that causes poverty, if you know where you're going you might find a solution, but it isn't an overnight job.

What government can do is divide up all the land that they currently have, give it to the people and then leave them alone, the thing about entrepreneurial incentive is that it occurs more often when government is not involved.
 
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Milano said:
If you removed social assistance and unions, then the state would be overthrown within 12 months. It is unfortunate this cannot be displayed using a virtual scenario generator.
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Achooo!!!

Sorry, I am allergic to BS.

The state would not be overthrown. The government might be changed come next election but the state wouldn't be overthrown.
 
Unions work on a simple principle: they need money to operate, which they get from their workers. Now if you stop paying their workers when they aren't working then they can't pay the unions. However in SA union workers have legislation protecting them which is absurd and then you have these politicians who pay them after they had a strike.
 
Ronjay said:
Nice. Just one question. How do you do it?

It's easy to say all that, but how exactly do you get people that have no education, no property, no money and no skills to become entrepreneurial? Of course the Gov are treating the symptom, the problem is they have no clue how to treat the cause. And it's not just here, the whole world has this problem. It's easy to say kill the grants, but what specifically replaces the policy that can provide sustainability and keep these people alive.

If you can provide a specific model, then I'm pretty sure you will become a very valuable member of humanity, akin to Ghandi, et al. Until then, I doubt you'll see anything change. The whole problem is that Gov doesn't just have a responsibility to tax payers, but to all SA'ns, to insure humane conditions. It is a mandate as laid out in the constitution.

I'm not arguing with you, and agree with you about the policy not uplifting the poor, just that I would like to know what can be done to change that. I mean I can go through a grand in a couple of days, that's all these people are getting for a month. It's a crap policy that is not going to create wealth or add to the economy but what else can Gov do to change the situation? I guarantee anything you can come up with will be far more expensive then what Gov can actually afford.
Click to expand...

You kill them off, is how.

As much as some of us ascribe to a western civilisation, we possibly need to look at two asian examples. We could go the India route and end up with a huge and growing population and live in a squatter camp, or we could go the China route where killing off people in the millions and restricting the birth rate seems to have a better outcome.

Unfortunately you had the word 'humane' in your post. And that becomes a deal breaker. Either way. The ANC created an environment where they wanted dumb citizens, they have done little to change that, and now have an inefficient society. Is it akin to gangrene - if we don't amputate, then the whole body will die. What is more humane? Life with one leg, or no life? And I am aware that you don't get too many one-legged tap dancers.
 
Nicodeamus said:
It will take time, you need a roll back policy, I'm in favour of having a government that always moves towards getting rid of unneeded functions. Tax the people less, balance your budget and spend less money year by year. It will take time, but the deeper we go into the whole socialistic government protects the people system the more difficult it will be to dug ourselves out.

The challenge is finding the right strategy, you start off by removing the mechanisms that causes poverty, if you know where you're going you might find a solution, but it isn't an overnight job.

What government can do is divide up all the land that they currently have, give it to the people and then leave them alone, the thing about entrepreneurial incentive is that it occurs more often when government is not involved.
Click to expand...

Why should everyone be an entrepreneur? And why would you suggest that government owns anything?

The biggest problem that we have with government is that it sees itself as an employer. It isn't. Sure, there are a number of people who are in the employ of the state to make sure that the government operates. But it is not the role of government to create jobs. Government should create an environment in which jobs are created, i.e. get rid of a bunch of labour laws, scrap affirmative action and BEE, remove trade barriers, etc.
 
Hear hear, Albareth. Pity though that such a simple concept will remain a pipe dream for the socialist ANC...
 
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