Some signs that SA is falling apart

[BandwidthAddict]

edc,

As a person who only did Economics 101, and some side reading, I do understand where you are coming from. It is true that the indicators are pointing to economic meltdown. What most people here do not know is that economics is very tied to social factors thus the socio-economic model.

I have looked at RSA from a social perspective and I do not see any redress for the limitations that exist today.

Here are a few questions:

1. What is government's strategy for the economy today, for 5 years, for 10 years, for 20 years?
2. How does government plan to encourage entrepreneurs to build small businesses? The small business, rather than the mega-corps, are the life-blood of a country.
3. What does government plan for education? Education is a key, probably the most vital part of, the economy. Some topics that can help economies are the role and effective usage of banks, the tax code, business economics, business history (or economics 101). These should be taught at a school level.
4. What are governments strategies for infrastructure development and maintenance?
5. What plans does government have for operational transparency? A government that works under the table does not induce confidence in a country's future.

etc.

You get the drift. The government has been sitting on it's fat ass collecting our money and draining it out of the economy; for no return. If you compare RSA service delivery to other countries that have a similar tax level, for example Australia, you would realise the drain on this economy.

And for the anti-capitalists, let me just say, that the Bush tax cuts had an immediate and obvious effect on the American economy, people got wealthier and invested more; DOW at 13000 - wow. Of course the anti-life defeatocrats want to undo that and raise taxes to stupid levels again. We can learn from that.

So much to say, but too lazy to type. Let the frothing begin.

 

[edc]

halicon:

India was the richest country in the world prior to the British invasion, it is also where pi and pythagoras's principle was discovered. India discovered the numerical concepts to do basic mathematics.

It is the largest populous democracy in the world, it's GDP grows by 9.2%. It is the 12th largest economy in the world.

I don't see how you can compare India to an African country.

 

[nocilah]

Of course it is a good thing. They spend money recklessly and can be taxed like no other class can. The government loves them.

However, this country inherited its economic system from the English and Afrikaners. That's why it doesn't 'look' like other parts of Africa.

The risk is when El Presidente tries so hard to Africanize everything, it WILL look like the rest of this God-forsaken continent.

er... not when you have large middle class that the government loves to tax as you put it.

we have alot of wealth when COMPARED to other AFRICAN countries.

we're an emerging market... so don't expect USA overnight.

things you should consider:

When our black government took over there was no mass genocide like in other african countries. In fact NO VIOLENCE wot so eva. thats pretty amazing.

A strong black middle class not only ensures economic well being, but an informed voter population who want the best for their life.

Our government was voted with 2/3rd majority and no change has occurred to our world class constitution. Actually our constitution has been rated as the best in the world.

Look at the stuff available in our country vs in the 1980's when scope magazine had stars on boobs and SABC started at 5pm.

I am not saying SA is perfect. not is our government perfect, but fark... atleast we dont fake moon landings and fly planes into buildings purely to uplift our economy and make a quick buck.

 

[edc]

3. What does government plan for education? Education is a key, probably the most vital part of, the economy. Some topics that can help economies are the role and effective usage of banks, the tax code, business economics, business history (or economics 101). These should be taught at a school level.

And for the anti-capitalists, let me just say, that the Bush tax cuts had an immediate and obvious effect on the American economy, people got wealthier and invested more; DOW at 13000 - wow. Of course the anti-life defeatocrats want to undo that and raise taxes to stupid levels again. We can learn from that.

So much to say, but too lazy to type. Let the frothing begin.

I agree 100% with everything you said.

I fully oppose our system of increased income tax rates relative to total income. It means rich people, who have proved they know how to work well with money, are punished for it. The money is given to an ineffective government (any government is ineffective compared to productive entrepreneurs). VAT should replace income tax. That way the rich can use their savings to invest and to create more wealth.

Rich people don't pay taxes anyway, the poor does, rich people hire accountants and lawyers to ensure the government gets as little as possible from them. VAT is the cheapest most effective way to produce government income.

The only way the poor will ever become rich is through financial education as you suggested.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

but when you start comparing our country to emerging markets we are doing just fine.

In what terms?

Socially, corruption is on the increase, so is nepotism and incompetence. Look to the Marine and Coastal Management (MCM). Look to the ridiculous telecoms laws and protectionism. Those other emerging markets have cheaper telecoms then us.

You say that we are doing better than them? Ok, are we doing better than 1994? How about education, crime, infrastructure management? Can you say the matrics leaving school today are as well off as their counterparts in 1994? We may be doing better than a lot of Africa but then, at 1994, we were a few orders of magnitude ahead of them. Is this the case now?

Now of course, honourary mentions of Dept of Health, Dept of Home Affairs, the rail system and the hobbling of Eskom. Not to mention the failures at the frikkin nuke-leear power plant (it's a frikkin nuclear power-plant, we do not want failures there please).

I would think twice before comparing us favourably with the "other" nations in our basket; we are moving towards parity and not in the "good" direction.

 

[orin76]

Completely unpredictable isn't it (NOT). We also know how much free electricity we give away, also how much we give to Zim and how much is stolen.

Just wanted to clear up this common misconception. Zimbabwe is completely paid up with Eskom regarding electricity. They may not have money to buy petrol, but they have been making their electricity payments without fail for a while now. This is a fact!

P.S. I'm no fan of Mad Bob.

 

[edc]

we have alot of wealth when COMPARED to other AFRICAN countries.

we're an emerging market... so don't expect USA overnight.

When our black government took over there was no mass genocide like in other african countries. In fact NO VIOLENCE wot so eva. thats pretty amazing.

A strong black middle class not only ensures economic well being, but an informed voter population who want the best for their life.

Our government was voted with 2/3rd majority and no change has occurred to our world class constitution. Actually our constitution has been rated as the best in the world.

I am not saying SA is perfect. not is our government perfect, but fark... atleast we dont fake moon landings and fly planes into buildings purely to uplift our economy and make a quick buck.

We should not compare ourselves to other African countries, that is like comparing you to 3 year old. I personally compare myself to the highest possible standard I can find and aim for it.

We are an emerging market and I don't expect USA overnight and in the current situation, never. That is my point, NEVER.

The middle class does not count as long as there are several times more uneducated "peasants". I worked for the DA during the last elections, a mentally handicapped white guy voted for IFP while he actually wanted to vote DA. He got confused and agitated and we let him be. The same goes for people without matric, they should not be able to vote, as their votes are based on no particular merits.

We have a great constitution, we are all equal, but the implementation to make everyone equal is lacking. It is easy to write down a dream, more difficult to achieve it.

A 2/3 majority/dictatorship is more damaging than a perfect 0.55:0.45 democracy.

We did not have a mass genocide, just a ****load of violence right now. A mass genocide is quick, what is happening now is a cancer.

You can not compare India to Africa.

About the moon landings, if you believe in a conspiracy, you should shut the hell up hippie. The moon landing did happen. No wonder you hold the opinions you do.

 

[orin76]

I don't think either of you see the logic, so I'll try again.
Apartheid ended (yay).
Black people get more education than before.
Black people now get jobs they couldn't before.
Black people now get money.
Black people have large families (as before).
--BOOM-- a middle class appears as if by magic
E..n..t..i..r..e..l..y.....P..r..e..d..i..c..t..a..b..l..e...!.!

Where do you get this rubbish? Black people (like any other population group) have fewer kids the wealthier they get. There are exceptions, but that is true for all races (I know at least 2 white upper middle class families with more than 5 kids).

 

[nocilah]

halicon:

India was the richest country in the world prior to the British invasion, it is also where pi and pythagoras's principle was discovered. India discovered the numerical concepts to do basic mathematics.

It is the largest populous democracy in the world, it's GDP grows by 9.2%. It is the 12th largest economy in the world.

I don't see how you can compare India to an African country.

Pi was discovered in Greece, and probably derived from Egypt.
Pythagoras was a greek mathematician also some princinples deriving from Egypt.

Egypt is African. The Pyramids show alot of these mathematical principles in action. Where in India do they share the same ruins?

Anyway. Emerging Markets in 2007.

List of emerging markets

* Argentina
* Brazil
* Chile
* China
* Colombia
* Czech Republic
* Egypt
* Hungary
* India
* Indonesia
* Israel
* Jordan
* Malaysia
* Mexico
* Morocco
* Pakistan
* Peru
* Philippines
* Poland
* Russia
* South Africa
* South Korea
* China Taiwan (ROC)
* Thailand
* Turkey

and BTW the top emerging markets right now?

Brazil, Russia, India and China.

These are the countries we should compare ourself to. NOT AUSTRALIA.

So for a well learned economist you pretty uneducated but after all you are an African Economist.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

Our government was voted with 2/3rd majority and no change has occurred to our world class constitution. Actually our constitution has been rated as the best in the world.

Actually, there have been 12 amendments. It's the proposed 14th one that scares me sh1tless: http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=260886&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/#

So much for a benign dictatorship

 

[edc]

Pi was discovered in Greece, and probably derived from Egypt.
Pythagoras was a greek mathematician also some princinples deriving from Egypt.

Egypt is African. The Pyramids show alot of these mathematical principles in action. Where in India do they share the same ruins?

The theory was laid down by the Greeks and such, they are credited for it, India discovered and applied it before they did. I typed what I did while listening to Donald Trump, a history buff, so take my word for it. India is discovered and applied pi and the pythagoras principle first.

Putting South-Africa on a list with India does not change reality. Americans are worried that India and China will surpass them, while the only concern for South-Africa is AIDS and corruption.

South-Africa does not compare to India.

India has the merits, South-Africa does not.

 

[nocilah]

you should shut the hell up hippie.

ahh when the ePenis fails turn to the eInsults.

I should have gathered you were part of the DA. It is the whining and the political agenda behind your posts that is off putting.

Anyway... the shortage if intelligence coming from your posts is another reason why this country is going 'down the tubes'. But it's okay you can BLAME the government.

Im gonna play Xbox. Laterz!

 

[edc]

ahh when the ePenis fails turn to the eInsults.

I should have gathered you were part of the DA. It is the whining and the political agenda behind your posts that is off putting.

Anyway... the shortage if intelligence coming from your posts is another reason why this country is going 'down the tubes'. But it's okay you can BLAME the government.

Im gonna play Xbox. Laterz!

The whole post above is an insult to halicon himself, which is why I quoted him.

I'm not part of the DA, I worked for them as an independent observer. I want to vote for the ANC if Trevor Manual stands for president 2009.

 

[IamCanadian]

Has my life changed in the past 10 years? Yes! Has it gotten worse? No!

It will get worse.

Zimbabwe II.

 

[IamCanadian]

Economic growth is preceded by:
- politcal stability
- education
- technology
- savings and investment
- well defines laws of owership

How healthy does those indicators look to you in South-Africa, compared to Australia? Those are questions you should be asking yourself.

Quite correct.

How does SA compare with Canada?

It doesn't.

You have to live in the 1st world to really see what the 3rd world is truly like.

Here everything works. Sometimes there are glitches but they are attended to right away.

 

[Moederloos]

Another reason: the Bedfordview/Senderwood/Eastgate area has been without power for the last day and a half!

And this has yet to make it to a major news event. The fact that a main suburb can be offline for going on two days and not even warrant a headline is a sure sign the wheels have already fallen off.

 

[IamCanadian]

the difference is no other african country has a large middle class, which is our saving grace.

it is a good thing. even our dotty wannabe economist will tell you that.

Speaking relatively, Zimbabwe probably had the same size "middle class" as SA. Didn't do them much good once all the skilled people left to find greener pastures.

 

[Moederloos]

Speaking relatively, Zimbabwe probably had the same size "middle class" as SA. Didn't do them much good once all the skilled people left to find greener pastures.

There's the rub - the middle class leaves in the end.

 

[IamCanadian]

I am not saying SA is perfect. not is our government perfect, but fark... atleast we dont fake moon landings and fly planes into buildings purely to uplift our economy and make a quick buck.

Now I know where you're coming from.

A conspiracy theorist nutbar! Did you pick up all your "wisdom" on rense.com or some other conspiracy website?

Next you'll be telling us that aliens once landed in your backyard and that Jimmy Hoffa really emmigrated to SA and he is your father.

 

[Moederloos]

hehe - the only difference between faking a moon landing and faking SA's crime problem in the hope of fooling investors, is the Americans have so far gotten away with it.