SONA 2015

Sinbad said:
By staying they would have lent legitimacy to proceedings that by that point had already descended into unconstitutional farce.

They left because the Speaker and Chairperson failed to answer a legitimate question about who had come into the chamber.
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This pretty much, I think the point they were trying to make is along the lines of 'whats next, you going to bring in sandf to remove anyone who questions the anc'.
 
Space_Chief said:
Heck everyone in that video looked healthy. People shouted. Some physical activity followed. Some EFF woman got taken to hospital but maybe it's not serious. Not like a fist fight in a Taiwanese or Korean parliament.
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and the relevance of Korea or Taiwan to SA..?
 
ellyally said:
This pretty much, I think the point they were trying to make is along the lines of 'whats next, you going to bring in sandf to remove anyone who questions the anc'.
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That's what Mmusi Maimane asked, pretty much. "Can we expect you to call the SANDF next time"
 
Space_Chief said:
What else could they do? I'm not supporting the ANC but what else? Use unarmed men? Sure.

If you cause trouble in a court the judge will use armed men to expel you and even arrest you. What makes these MPs more important than a common pleb? Yes they have diplomatic immunity but if the common man can be removed, who in principle is an equal to an MP, then what? I know a court is different but we're all equal. This is pretty unprecedented. I think the people who ordered this did not have a proper procedure to deal with this.
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Parliament has its own security detail. SAPS aren't allowed in the chamber unless there's a real emergency. This is why the DA were so adamant about knowing whether they were SAPS or Parliamentary staff.

The one newscaster also mentioned they were possibly part of the Presidential Protection Unit. Bad news.
 
Sinbad said:
That's what Mmusi Maimane asked, pretty much. "Can we expect you to call the SANDF next time"
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Yarr, at which point, democracy, freedom of speech, constitution etc is all in the toilet
 
ellyally said:
This pretty much, I think the point they were trying to make is along the lines of 'whats next, you going to bring in sandf to remove anyone who questions the anc'.
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Maybe. But now--- and against whom?

EFF? EFF has pretty populist and anti-business policies. At least ANC is made of guys like Ramaphosa and Sexwale but EFF said they'd nationalise the mines and so on, didn't they? The ANC in effect has shown that a certain degree of stability remains and that they will not go to such left wing measures as EFF would-- at least for now. They could have formed a coalition with the EFF, ne?

ANC has only used the cops against the EFF too, before. Sure it's an opposition party the EFF have behaved in a particular way and one can argue that it's not conducive to running a parliament.

DA (and others) has been official opposition to ANC for many years longer. This has never been an issue against them.
 
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Space_Chief said:
Maybe. But now--- and against whom?

EFF? EFF has pretty populist and anti-business policies. At least ANC is made of guys like Ramaphosa and Sexwale but EFF said they'd nationalise the mines and so on, didn't they? The ANC in effect has shown that a certain degree of stability remains and that they will not go to such left wing measures as EFF would.

ANC has only used the cops against the EFF too. Sure it's an opposition party the EFF have behaved in a particular way and one can argue that it's not conducive to running a parliament.
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The ANC is not made of guys like Ramaphosa and (wife-beater) Sexwale.

That's two out of thousands who can think of nothing more important than enriching themselves - and those two are probably excluded because their bank accounts are full and can't take any more.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Parliament has its own security detail. SAPS aren't allowed in the chamber unless there's a real emergency. This is why the DA were so adamant about knowing whether they were SAPS or Parliamentary staff.

The one newscaster also mentioned they were possibly part of the Presidential Protection Unit. Bad news.
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Only if you accept this was a purposeful show of force. If you assign it to them not being sure what to do and somebody ordering these guys instead of those other guys.... Also at the end they all have the same boss.
 
Space_Chief said:
Only if you accept this was a purposeful show of force. If you assign it to them not being sure what to do and somebody ordering these guys instead of those other guys.... Also at the end they all have the same boss.
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Of course it was purposeful.
Why else would the police have been there? Constitutionally they're not ALLOWED in there. This was planned. They knew the EFF would disrupt things, so they made illegal plans to deal with it.
 
Can we get all these f@#$tards together everyday for a chinwag? Then we wont have loadshedding, er blackouts I mean.
 
Sinbad said:
The ANC is not made of guys like Ramaphosa and (wife-beater) Sexwale.

That's two out of thousands who can think of nothing more important than enriching themselves - and those two are probably excluded because their bank accounts are full and can't take any more.
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Dude, yes and no. ANC for the most part has embraced pro-business and capitalist policies, at least more so than the SACP, COSATU and EFF. Yes there is corruption but do we want Marxism too?
 
Space_Chief said:
What else could they do? I'm not supporting the ANC but what else? Use unarmed men? Sure.

If you cause trouble in a court the judge will use armed men to expel you and even arrest you. What makes these MPs more important than a common pleb? Yes they have diplomatic immunity but if the common man can be removed, who in principle is an equal to an MP, then what? I know a court is different but we're all equal. This is pretty unprecedented. I think the people who ordered this did not have a proper procedure to deal with this.
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it is not diplomatic immunity but rather parliamentary privilege

Armed police do not enter a court room willy nilly either but rather do so to address a clear and present threat - if an EFF member pulled a knife or a gun then SAPS could enter in a heartbeat.

This isn't all that unprecedented - the English civil war ...
 
Sinbad said:
Of course it was purposeful.
Why else would the police have been there? Constitutionally they're not ALLOWED in there. This was planned. They knew the EFF would disrupt things, so they made illegal plans to deal with it.
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Cops were nearby. Cops patrol parliamentary grounds too.

Maybe. I don't think this was a show of force against the DA at least. I don't think the ANC needs to do that. They have a clear majority. They can just ignore the opposition.
 
Paul Hjul said:
it is not diplomatic immunity but rather parliamentary privilege

Armed police do not enter a court room willy nilly either but rather do so to address a clear and present threat - if an EFF member pulled a knife or a gun then SAPS could enter in a heartbeat.

This isn't all that unprecedented - the English civil war ...
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you said willy nilly :D
 
Sinbad said:
Of course it was purposeful.
Why else would the police have been there? Constitutionally they're not ALLOWED in there. This was planned. They knew the EFF would disrupt things, so they made illegal plans to deal with it.
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not only does it raise direct constitutional issues calling in SAPS but statute already provides for the matter and there was no present threat to safety
 
Paul Hjul said:
it is not diplomatic immunity but rather parliamentary privilege

Armed police do not enter a court room willy nilly either but rather do so to address a clear and present threat - if an EFF member pulled a knife or a gun then SAPS could enter in a heartbeat.

This isn't all that unprecedented - the English civil war ...
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Paul, whoever it is, they have a gun. A gun which can be used to end the pleb's or MP's life. In legalistic terms there is a difference, but in practice a fired weapon is a fired weapon. Or do you mean that normal parliamentary bouncers carry no guns?
 
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