Struggle songs have a place - U2

Flanders said:
Firstly, let me make it clear that I'm not even Afrikaans and secondly, I'm not one of those who harps on specifically about genocide. Whether or not it's techically classed as genocide I cannot say as I haven't gone to great lengths to determine whether the techical definition matches the situation in SA right now. One thing's for sure though; there are big problems and that I do not try to downplay in any way. So as far as my head being in the sand goes, I beg to differ.

One aspect that surely makes your theory fall through its own bunghole with respect to



is that for it to be considered genocide, is it not required that there be more than one group involved -- ie. the victim and the perpetrator?

Black genocide?! Who's doing the killing here exactly?
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I never claimed there was a black genocide. Or a Jamaican one. Or a Columbian one etc. I just named groups of people who are murdered at a far higher rate than white South Africans. If the boers are somehow "experiencing genocide" but people who are killed at a far higher rate per capita aren't, then what does that say about this definition of genocide ? It's obviously faulty right ? Or it's extremely "boer centric" to say the least.


I do think that it is important for the "boers" to have a platform to speak about issues that effect them. But they musn't abuse this platform with misinformation to stir up race hate as often is done. The "boers" do not have the monopoly on experiencing violent crime in this country. Far from it. They, with other whites, are the least affected group. This is a fact. Use that as a starting point and build your argument up from there. Then I know you're a concerned memeber of society and not just pushing the hateful agenda of one racial group (like Malema does.)

And in case you are second guessing my opinion on Malema, I don't think there is at all a place for specifically a song with the lyrics "kill the boer" in this modern day context and he's a muppet to suggest there is.
 
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I agree with Bono. This particular struggle song does have a place.

...


and that place is on a ban list along with all the other songs that preach violence against ethnic groups.
 
beeleguise said:
They, with other whites, are the least affected group. This is a fact.
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See, that so-called fact, for me, presents a problem. Let's be honest here. Whites aren't doing the killing. For some, the fact that blacks kill other blacks in Africa (often on a grand scale) seems to be their trump card. What you appear to be saying is that any other ethnic group's right to speak out against being killed is waivered because of the fact that, in the grand scheme of things, their casualties in terms of numbers are fewest. Perhaps, even more importantly is that this also somehow sways focus from the very real possibility that, percentage-wise, minority groups are targetted at a higher rate with the motive of hatred. So as long as blacks are killing other blacks then everyone else just becomes casualties of war and the question of motive, along with the right to be upset about it goes out the window. Is that about right?
 
grayston said:
Yeah, yeah, but you are in effect saying something along the lines of, "Some black guys dismembered your grandmother on her farm and you think white people are under attack? You dumbass!"

In order to carry on with the point that farm murders, etc, don't constitute genocide, it's important to make it clear that you still find the idea of farm murders to be absolutely abhorrent. You have been concentrating on proving that 56 white murders per year doesn't count as genocide. Rather show that your stance is that 56 white murders per year is 56 too many, not to mention all the black people being killed as well, and that this is a symptom of a more general problem than can be adequately explained by genocide.

EDIT: Sorry. Had to add this in. Diplomacy is ACTUALLY the art of telling the truth without causing offense.

It isn't about not calling people names.
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If you read the post in question I was very clear about that. To me it's so obvious but let me say it again as it's obviously worth saying. 1 murder is too many. Any act of murder is obviously inexcusable and disgusting and even a million more times so when carried out on 3 year old girls or old defencless people. I understand when these things happen why one would want to feel extremely angry, including myself. But we should for the greater good defend against the emotive tendency to think in absolutes. That's why I think it's helpful to know the facts. To understand your group are not the only victims or not even the main victim.

This helps us not to not listen to people who want to stand on a box and tell you that others all want to kill you and therefore you must despise them. That these isolated acts stand to represent a "race war" or a "genocide." No good can come from this. It can only divide us further and create more tension and rhetoric. And if there are some racially based muders it was the divisions and tensions between us that caused them. We must ease these tensions, we must pull the fuel from the fire not throw more on.

But that's not to say we must tolerate or accept any racially based violence. We must stand against it in the strongest sense from all sides. But we must stand against it in the right context. Certainly we musn't be hyperbolic and alarmist about it because that is seflf defeating. All this has done in our country is build mass hysteria and neurosis even mking some people live in fear, live in hate and even feel they had to leave the country and such often entirely irrational and illogical responses.
 
beeleguise said:
If you read the post in question I was very clear about that. To me it's so obvious but let me say it again as it's obviously worth saying. 1 murder is too many. Any act of murder is obviously inexcusable and disgusting and even a million more times so when carried out on 3 year old girls or old defencless people. I understand when these things happen why one would want to feel extremely angry, including myself. But we should for the greater good defend against the emotive tendency to think in absolutes. That's why I think it's helpful to know the facts. To understand your group are not the only victims or not even the main victim.

This helps us not to not listen to people who want to stand on a box and tell you that others all want to kill you and therefore you must despise them. That these isolated acts stand to represent a "race war" or a "genocide." No good can come from this. It can only divide us further and create more tension and rhetoric. And if there are some racially based muders it was the divisions and tensions between us that caused them. We must ease these tensions, we must pull the fuel from the fire not throw more on.

But that's not to say we must tolerate or accept any racially based violence. We must stand against it in the strongest sense from all sides. But we must stand against it in the right context. Certainly we musn't be hyperbolic and alarmist about it because that is seflf defeating. All this has done in our country is build mass hysteria and neurosis even mking some people live in fear, live in hate and even feel they had to leave the country and such often entirely irrational and illogical responses.
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Quick someone, SMS this post to Malema and the ANC. Then they can ban the song and be in Zuma's heaven living happily ever after.
 
Flanders said:
See, that so-called fact, for me, presents a problem. Let's be honest here. Whites aren't doing the killing.
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That's also a myth. Apart from the any cases we can read about in the papers of whites killing people here's a thought experiment. If there were only white people in South Africa, would there be no murder ?

Of course there would be, just like anywhere else in the world. In fact given the agressive nature of certain white South Africans who like to drink and fight and shoot there would probably be quite a bit.
 
beeleguise said:
I don't know who you are talking to. All I want to do is debate. Something clearly not on the cards here because I keep having to deal with people beating a strawman.
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Debate what? That Malema are allowed to use a hatred inciting song at will to masses that could due to a low intellect level take the meaning up "wrong" and do just what the song promotes. That is "Kill the Boer". So You are spending all your valuable diplomatic time here to justify Malema's actions. A person who has been proven to be a low class liar, thieve and extremist, as well as the ANCYL president. Now that must all have been done in innocence taking the track record of Malema in account. :)

So NO!. In my eyes you are not debating, You are campaigning the right of Malema to incite violence publicly. That makes you one and the same as Malema and what he stands for. The same racism Malema clearly incites are condoned by You and others just like you.
 
beeleguise said:
That's also a myth. Apart from the any cases we can read about in the papers of whites killing people here's a thought experiment. If there were only white people in South Africa, would there be no murder ?

Of course there would be, just like anywhere else in the world. In fact given the agressive nature of certain white South Africans who like to drink and fight and shoot there would probably be quite a bit.
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All the murderers I've personally known have been white.
 
Bono is a DOUCHE!! Plain and simple.. watch the Bono episode of South Park, its a pretty accurate depiction...
 
must be honest... when I read the headline yesterday I was livid

then I read the article and saw the press were bring nobs, as normal. just trying to make something of nothing. the press do that, highlight the juicy bits and tend to sideline or entirely forget the context in which its said/done

then read the full release of the conversation and just :rolleyes: at everyone getting upset

just another excuse to debate the malema tune really
 
HTC_guy said:
must be honest... when I read the headline yesterday I was livid

then I read the article and saw the press were bring nobs, as normal. just trying to make something of nothing. the press do that, highlight the juicy bits and tend to sideline or entirely forget the context in which its said/done

then read the full release of the conversation and just :rolleyes: at everyone getting upset

just another excuse to debate the malema tune really
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I tried pointing that fact out yesterday morning on about the third post, and 190 odd posts later people are still reacting to the headline and not reading the article...:rolleyes:
 
Natas said:
Bono is a DOUCHE!! Plain and simple.. watch the Bono episode of South Park, its a pretty accurate depiction...
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[video]http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155668/bono-is-crap[/video]
 
3G4me said:
Do you actually live in South Africa?
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Yes, I do. I'm not saying that the majority of murderers here aren't black but I know one chap who went off the rails just after high school, ended up in a knife fight and another friend's father shot his mother and then himself.
 
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