Tax: Why align with "most other countries"?

[Techne]

Good article at Daily Maverick by Ivo Vegter on tax reform and the benefits of free markets economics over welfare state type economics.
Tax: Why align with "most other countries"?

When Pravin Gordhan announced a new 15% dividend tax to replace the 10% secondary tax on companies, along with jacking up the capital gains tax rate, he said he wanted to bring SA in line with “most other countries”. Why would anyone want that?

 

[w1z4rd]

I want our country to be more like the Scandinavian countries and countries like Canada. I certainly want to have their high qualities of life, education, health and happiness. I like the their plan more than I like market fundamentalism.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

 

[alloytoo]

I want our country to be more like the Scandinavian countries and countries like Canada. I certainly want to have their high qualities of life, education, health and happiness. I like the their plan more than I like market fundamentalism.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

You just have to look at Mercer's quality of life survey to see which models work better for people.

 

[Vrotappel]

I want our country to be more like the Scandinavian countries and countries like Canada. I certainly want to have their high qualities of life, education, health and happiness. I like the their plan more than I like market fundamentalism.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

We don't have the taxpayer base for that.

 

[Kosmik]

We don't have the taxpayer base for that.

We don't have the base for the current system either. When I think how much I pay in tax, just normal PAYE tax, it sickens me.

Flat percentage , most fair.

 

[Apache]

I want our country to be more like the Scandinavian countries and countries like Canada. I certainly want to have their high qualities of life, education, health and happiness. I like the their plan more than I like market fundamentalism.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

The unemployable and those who hate work in SA (50%+) also like that idea

 

[w1z4rd]

We don't have the taxpayer base for that.

Neither did Sweden or France or Germany when they started. Half the point of welfare is to create that tax base Someone be not understanding the role of a welfare state

 

[w1z4rd]

The unemployable and those who hate work in SA (50%+) also like that idea

Why would someone not like working? Im sure the people in Oranje will get off their bums if given the economic opportunities to do so

France had an unemployment rate of close to 40% when it went welfare, SA only has 24.9%. South Africa also is the most mineral rich country in the world and has access to resources that other countries that went welfare can only dream about.

We can easily do it. It just needs better management than the ANC are able to offer.

 

[czc]

I want our country to be more like the Scandinavian countries and countries like Canada. I certainly want to have their high qualities of life, education, health and happiness. I like the their plan more than I like market fundamentalism.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

Who would pay for that?

 

[w1z4rd]

Who would pay for that?

We would all work together to make our society more prosperous, free and stable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state

Hence the reason why the most economically free countries are welfare, why the highest quality of living is in welfare states and why those countries have the lowest unemployment. However, it takes all of us to reach that level, and based by the nature of some of the replies in this thread.... there are some selfish individuals who wanna do less than the rest of us are doing. While the rest of us are working hard and paying our fair share.... there are people trying to avoid that.

Its simple. If you dont wanna do this because you care about other people there are selfish reasons for this as well. The biggest being that the bigger the gap between the rich and poor, the more violent and unstable a society becomes. SA has one of the biggest gaps. Hence the high levels of violence. The only way to fix that is to reduce the gap.

If you dont, the house of cards you are building will come crashing down and the poor will take with force. Market fundamentalism has absolutely no mechanism to really deal with poverty. Some people say charities, but history has shown us that charities dont work (Sweden is a good case in point here).

 

[noxibox]

Maybe Hong Kong was once not a welfare state, but they are now and have been for at least 20 years. So is Estonia, and they have other taxes in addition to their income tax, so the tax rate is much higher than the claimed 21%.

The problem with economics is that it is a purely historical view and involves a complex variety of influencing factors. In the end someone whose ideology is the free market is going to pick a success and claim the free market did it.

Flat percentage , most fair.

How would that be fair?

The unemployable and those who hate work in SA (50%+) also like that idea

Christians?

 

[w1z4rd]

Guys just do this.

Go look at what countries have:

The most free markets
The most educated people
The healthiest people
Highest quality of life
Most safe and secure
Least poverty (This link shows you the unemployment and poverty of countries before they went welfare... and after a generation or so on welfare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_on_poverty )


Google it. Make a list of the top 10 of each and then go see what financial model they have applied. Most of them were in serious **** streets when they chose that financial model so look at them historically so you can see how far most of them have come.

This is not rocket science. If you want want the best countries have, then you need to replicate their model in a South African context. Welfare states are hard to run, and the ANC are mucking things up, but get the right okes and okette`s in charge and its ours. We are smart enough and we have the resources to pull this off well.

They way I see it, I would prefer to be more Canadian (big but well run government) than Somalian (no government).

Wanna know why welfare wins? Cause nice guys finish first (working together is far more affective than being selfish):

[video=youtube;x6rgWzYRXiI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6rgWzYRXiI[/video]

 

[Vrotappel]

Neither did Sweden or France or Germany when they started. Half the point of welfare is to create that tax base Someone be not understanding the role of a welfare state

We don't have the skill base for the 'create' bit. You are in Africa now.

 

[Ancalagon]

Please tell me how the welfare state in the UK is such a success. Yobs rioting for nothing, 18 year old girls who cant wait to get pregnant so they can go on the dole, yobs who use their welfare money to buy extra strength lager. Clearly a good system.

If you somehow manage to have a population responsible enough to work even when they dont need to, then a welfare state can work. For the rest of us, get off your ass and get a job.

 

[m4dh4tt3r]

Guys just do this.

Go look at what countries have:

The most free markets
The most educated people
The healthiest people
Highest quality of life
Most safe and secure
Least poverty (This link shows you the unemployment and poverty of countries before they went welfare... and after a generation or so on welfare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_on_poverty )


Google it. Make a list of the top 10 of each and then go see what financial model they have applied. Most of them were in serious **** streets when they chose that financial model so look at them historically so you can see how far most of them have come.

This is not rocket science. If you want want the best countries have, then you need to replicate their model in a South African context. Welfare states are hard to run, and the ANC are mucking things up, but get the right okes and okette`s in charge and its ours. We are smart enough and we have the resources to pull this off well.

They way I see it, I would prefer to be more Canadian (big but well run government) than Somalian (no government).

Wanna know why welfare wins? Cause nice guys finish first (working together is far more affective than being selfish):

never thought id agree with ghoti on a topic but absolutely agree with you on this bud!

 

[TKD01]

Please tell me how the welfare state in the UK is such a success. Yobs rioting for nothing, 18 year old girls who cant wait to get pregnant so they can go on the dole, yobs who use their welfare money to buy extra strength lager. Clearly a good system.

Yip saw that everyday, at 9am when I walk out of the station on the way to work, they "queue" already in front of the pub (and Willams Hunt - they like gambling horses), waiting for it to open...

Not too mention the influx if migrant' families from poorer backgrounds like Pakistan, Poland etc who also fall back on welfare...
It is a big problem, and Britain realizes the shyte their in...

 

[Apache]

Yip saw that everyday, at 9am when I walk out of the station on the way to work, they "queue" already in front of the pub (and Willams Hunt - they like gambling horses), waiting for it to open...

Not too mention the influx if migrant' families from poorer backgrounds like Pakistan, Poland etc who also fall back on welfare...
It is a big problem, and Britain realizes the shyte their in...

Welfare states do work in Europe when the state is populated by Europeans... But *sigh* culture and genetics play a massive role in how these systems are abused. It won't work in Africa.

 

[Garson007]

We don't have the taxpayer base for that.

We don't. However we could still tax more. Our taxes are a really low percentage of GDP. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP It's exactly the same as heavily under-taxed and backwards USA.

Edit: As an aside Ivo Vegter is so full of **** that I've long since stopped reading what he writes.

 

[BBSA]

We don't. However we could still tax more. Our taxes are a really low percentage of GDP. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP It's exactly the same as heavily under-taxed and backwards USA.

.

The ANC will fix that with new tolls, dividend tax, capital gains tax and the NHI

 

[Nanfeishen]

Why would someone not like working?

Are you serious ?

Other than to earn money, to live and buy things , work is meaningless and pointless.

I grew up between Norway and S.A., and i can tell you honestly now if i had lived in Norway, i would not have worked if i could have gained "state benefits", and i would not feel the least bit guilty about it if i could do that here either.
Why work when you can get money for nothing ? Makes no sense.

However we could still tax more.

:wtf:

Tax cuts drive economies and encourage work, tax hikes discourage work and encourage tax avoidance.

I work for myself, so if i work too much, i pay more tax, so i work as little as possible to ensure i pay as little tax as possible.
However if my taxes are cut, i will then work more, earn more and spend more.

You want to encourage work, encourage savings, encourage investment, increase peoples spending power, CUT TAXES.

As to welfare states, there comes a point when they stop being viable :

In twenty years time, Denmark may not be able to afford all the social services currently offered.

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/national/government-opens-debate-over-future-welfare-state

From 2010

Indeed, finance minister Borg recently announced about $1.9-billion of fresh spending and tax cuts in the 2011 budget.

“To increase the incentive to work, these cuts, applied only to work,”

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/76470/20101027/sweden-gdp-economy-banks-riksbank-social-welfare.htm

Some level of taxation is, of course, required to fund the public sector. At the same time, a high level of taxation does not necessarily translate into an equally high level of welfare

a large fraction of the population is living on benefits rather than working, due to the combination of high taxes, a rigid labour market and generous welfare benefits

http://www.newgeography.com/content/00814-swedens-taxes-the-hidden-costs-the-welfare-state