Tax: Why align with "most other countries"?

Are you serious ? :confused:

Other than to earn money, to live and buy things , work is meaningless and pointless.

Which is why people work. Yes. People want more than the basics believe it or not, and most are willing to work harder for it. If what you said half way resembled reality... no one would try get higher in their careers and most people would be happy to just idle along and earn R4000 a month. However, human beings are not like that. We want more and most of us if given the opportunity will work harder for more. I know I would. Blown away that you wouldnt.

I grew up between Norway and S.A., and i can tell you honestly now if i had lived in Norway, i would not have worked if i could have gained "state benefits", and i would not feel the least bit guilty about it if i could do that here either.
I couldnt handle intentionally taking money like that without try to improve myself and my conditions. I would wanna work my way out of the basics. I have too much integrity and pride to allow myself to wallow like you just said you would.

Why work when you can get money for nothing ? Makes no sense.

To get more stuff. Thats how it works. While you might be happy to live at the bottom most people want more out of life.
 
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Welfare states do work in Europe when the state is populated by Europeans... But *sigh* culture and genetics play a massive role in how these systems are abused. It won't work in Africa.

We don't have the skill base for the 'create' bit. You are in Africa now.

What do you mean by that? Please clarify, because right now that looks like insinuated racism... as it cant be just because of the geography as Africa is actually one of the richest and under developed continent in the world so there`s plenty of opportunity when the populations get education. So please could you two clarify what you mean.

Are you saying because theyre black they cant get it right? Cause thats how its looking from where I am sitting.

@VJB 449: None of the countries that went welfare had much in the way of skill sets when they went welfare... lol.. which is why they went welfare to create those skill sets.
 
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Which is why people work. Yes. People want more than the basics believe it or not, and most are willing to work harder for it.


I couldnt handle intentionally taking money like that without try to improve myself and my conditions. I would wanna work my way out of the basics. I have too much integrity and pride to allow myself to wallow like you just said you would.



To get more stuff. Thats how it works. While you might be happy to live at the bottom most people want more out of life.

Something we can all aspire too. But most won't.
 
How would that be fair?

Let's say everyone pays 10%, Person A earning R1000 will pay R100 but will receive more than that back in grants, welfare etc. Person B earning R10000 will pay R1000 but will get less government supported items.

The person earning less , pays less and is supported, the person earning more pays the same percentage which equates to more but doesn't feel penalised for earning or acheiving to get a good salary.
 
I work for myself, so if i work too much, i pay more tax, so i work as little as possible to ensure i pay as little tax as possible.
Why does this fallacy always come up? You will NEVER earn less by making more. Christ.
 
Blown away that you wouldnt.

I have a roof over my head, 3 meals a day, 2 cars, no debt, what more do i need that isnt just materialistic ?
What money i earn goes towards improving my mind and my life by travelling and reading.
Dont see why i should earn more money to support other people.

I couldnt handle intentionally taking money like that without try to improve myself and my conditions. I would wanna work my way out of the basics. I have too much integrity and pride to allow myself to wallow like you just said you would.

Unfortunately the welfare state doesnt encourage integrity and pride through the fruits of your labour, it encourages handouts to those who want it, not to those who deserve it or need it. As well as breeding a sense of entitlement to those handouts, rather than a sense of earning them.

Point i was making about the welfare state and why i am so against any form of collectivism or welfare system.

To get more stuff.

Thats the problem in life, too many people just "want more stuff" :sick:
 
I have a roof over my head, 3 meals a day, 2 cars, no debt, what more do i need that isnt just materialistic ?
What money i earn goes towards improving my mind and my life by travelling and reading.
Exactly? The idea behind policies like this is to provide everyone with their basic human needs and rights. 2 cars and 4 meals it might not be, however. If you want extra - then go work for it. The government already provides you with protection and policing, if they can provide more basics, then why not?
 
I have a roof over my head, 3 meals a day, 2 cars, no debt, what more do i need that isnt just materialistic ?
What money i earn goes towards improving my mind and my life by travelling and reading.

Now the reasons you mention here are exactly some of the reasons why others are willing to work harder rather than receive a bottom of the range cheque.
Dont see why i should earn more money to support other people.
Hopefully because you are a good person and want the best for everyone, but assuming you have lost the humane in human then I did offer an indisputable selfish reason for you to approve of for welfare states in an earlier post.


Unfortunately the welfare state doesnt encourage integrity and pride through the fruits of your labour, it encourages handouts to those who want it, not to those who deserve it or need it. As well as breeding a sense of entitlement to those handouts, rather than a sense of earning them.
Absolute thumb sucked opinion. If that was the case then none of the countries I linked to earlier would have shown such dramatic reductions in unemployment and poverty. Sorry dude, your opinion does not reflect reality.

As I have said, if what you said was remotely true, most people would be happy coasting along and surviving on a R4000 salary a month... but here is the zinger that you completely ignore. The bottom is not good enough for most people. Most people want more, they are wiling to work harder for more if given the opportunity. If this was not the case then capitalism would have failed completely.

Point i was making about the welfare state and why i am so against any form of collectivism or welfare system.
Oh, I thought your earlier point was people are ****ty and wont work if given the basics. Now I see its this. Well if you dont like it I believe there is no government in Antarctica. However, us in South Africa. Have national issues created by the douches of the past and we all have to work together to fix it. Just like France and Germany after WW2 and just like Finland after Soviet occupation. If you dont give a **** about anyone else but yourself .... go somewhere where there is only you. However, just like that lecture I showed featuring Richard Dawkins (which you clearly did not watch)... working together gets us further than being selfish.

Thats the problem in life, too many people just "want more stuff" :sick:
Um... thats the WHOLE point of the system you are promoting. Without it your (market fundamentalist) system would completely and absolutely fail! The point of capitalism is the incentive to get more by working harder.

Personally, I am with you on this. I wish our lives were focused on science and learning. I hate that we have to spend our lives chasing money, and one day when we invent the replicator everything will change... but until then, we gotta make do with what we have.
 
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Please tell me how the welfare state in the UK is such a success. Yobs rioting for nothing, 18 year old girls who cant wait to get pregnant so they can go on the dole, yobs who use their welfare money to buy extra strength lager. Clearly a good system.
It could do with some tweaking, but their major problem is the nanny state which is not a necessary part of the welfare state.

If you somehow manage to have a population responsible enough to work even when they dont need to, then a welfare state can work. For the rest of us, get off your ass and get a job.
That's generally most of the population.

Yip saw that everyday, at 9am when I walk out of the station on the way to work, they "queue" already in front of the pub (and Willams Hunt - they like gambling horses), waiting for it to open...
What percentage were they of the unemployed?

Not too mention the influx if migrant' families from poorer backgrounds like Pakistan, Poland etc who also fall back on welfare...
It is a big problem, and Britain realizes the shyte their in...
What percentage are they of the foreigners? I saw many, many hardworking foreigners in the UK.

Let's say everyone pays 10%, Person A earning R1000 will pay R100 but will receive more than that back in grants, welfare etc. Person B earning R10000 will pay R1000 but will get less government supported items.

The person earning less , pays less and is supported, the person earning more pays the same percentage which equates to more but doesn't feel penalised for earning or acheiving to get a good salary.
I thought as much. Basically something that pretends not to be a progressive tax system, but in essence really is. Every sensible suggestion of a flat tax ends up boiling down to making it look like a flat tax when it isn't in reality.

Why does this fallacy always come up? You will NEVER earn less by making more. Christ.
I've never understand that ridiculous claim either.
 
It could do with some tweaking, but their major problem is the nanny state which is not a necessary part of the welfare state.
Thank you. It cannot be said enough that the liberal left does not mean the promotion of a nanny state.
 
but assuming you have lost the humane in human then I did offer an indisputable selfish reason for you to approve of for welfare states in an earlier post.

There is a big difference in providing and assisting people from a point of being humane, to providing and assisting people who are too lazy to do anything other than pick up their monthly welfare cheque.
People beg for money outside a shop, i will tell them to Ef-off, ask me to buy them a loaf of bread or some food, i will always do so, IF i have the money to spare.

Absolute thumb sucked opinion. If that was the case then none of the countries I linked to earlier would have shown such dramatic reductions in unemployment and poverty. Sorry dude, your opinion does not reflect reality.

"There is a time and place for everything", a very familiar proverb.

I am old enough to have had parents and family who lived through WW2 in both Denmark and Norway, and i can say with confidence, that they were a very different generation to todays. Those people survived to build. That generation built something new, and were determined to do so out of a national pride, they were united as a nation, with a common goal. It was a period of rebuilding. It was the right time and the right place to do so, and it works for that very reason. That generation understood work for the benefits.

If one looks at the modern generation who grew up under that system, one finds a very different attitude towards welfare. There now exists a sense of entitlement by many to those benefits, that it is a right that they should get them rather than a privilege one works for.

Hence the huge influx of "refugees" to so many of those countries, so that within a short space of time regarding residence within those countries, they are now eligible and entitled to benefits.
Those new people didnt work for them, havent earned them, however are now entitled to them. All they are doing is riding on the backs of hard working people, who are paying for things they should be getting but are not because those not working are placing an extra strain and draining the system of those benefits.

You want a welfare state, or a better welfare system , good for you, you want it to work here in S.A. then follow the following:

Do away with corruption, nepotism, kick-backs, AA, BEE, and the myriad other facets that lead to squandering of resources and misappropriation of funds.
Ensure that the average man in the street has enough knowledge to make educated informed decisions about what and who to vote for.
Stop the continued practice of encouraging cultural differences that do not promote and encourage integration.
Give us a reason for national pride. I am not talking nationalism, but reasons to be proud of building for the nation and the future.
 
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