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Telkom ruling sends shivers down the spine
- Thread starter mystic
- Start date
It's like one of those good movies you just want to watch over and over...RoosTa
Expert Member
Yep thats what many have been saying since $izwe left like the coward he is.
TELKOM shares give elasticity a new meaning. When it's time to release results (interim or other) they climb. Since they released their 'strong' (as they put it
) 6 months YTD results a few weeks ago their share has been on a downward trend. Must've lost about 12-15 rand since then. 
i'm with you (and was only pointing out the constitutional issue inherent in same-sex [-]marriages[/-] civil unions not pointing fingers)
if the advantage of a constitution is a fresh start and wider access to and understanding of those rights i am all for it. the SCA applies the law strictly and correctly to those standing before it and with due regard to the system of precedent. The CC is more about the balancing of rights against each other and against the validity of any professed need of the state to limit these right within the broader social context (e.g. the Marriage Act under which only a male and a female could marry was seen as an unjustifiable limitation on the right of equality in the light of the fact that homos3xuality has entered the mainstream - marriage is a legal act with legal consequences).
@BTTB - i don't hang out in courts but there were very few magistrates, imro, who knew what they were doing - in the first matter i appeared in the magistrate overruled a line of Appellate Division cases going back to 1921! as far as i know the standard at high court level is pretty solid - Appeal Courts coming to different decisions is neither rare nor new
Off topic:
lol at magistrates remarks but you can't blame them for not knowing about cases going all the way back to 1921 that was a long time ago and requires extensive reading and like stuff ...
But yes it is nice to seperate the rigid and the balancing acts but in this instance the balancing act seemed to go against the favour of homosexuals in that following the Appeal Court ruling (and some further proding on the minister etc ...) they would be able to get married now they only get the stepchild Civil Union. And while Telkom by any other name would smell just as bad there is some symbolism in the name. And I think SA jurispruidence would achieve a lot of good when this is properly fanned out.
On topic:
Something Im not understanding from the judgement (or at least not seeing a reason for) is the holding that SA Law applies ..., as I understand it private international law allows the parties to decide what system of laws they would , and that the real complication lies in getting the arbitration award made an order of court in SA (there was the uber long Law Commission project on SAs lagging behind in international commercial arbitration). Im guessing something along the lines of it being in the agreement but am not clear on the whole thing
DragonLogos
Expert Member
I have been following this case for a good while now, and I must say from what I read Telkom did not have a hope of winning it, why they drew it out the way they did could have been for one or two reasons.
Firstly they might have hope that Telcordia might have backed off a bit and given them a discount, Telcordia might have given up and gone home, or that not having to pay them made their books look good, better than they should
This is not the only case that is pending against Telkom, on top of that Telkom are trying to worm their way out of a Competition Commission fine of 4 Billion Rand which will take the wind out of their bottom line, and if that's not bad enough I hear that there is another complaint going into the Competition Commission and the fine which is based on Gross turnover of the complaint will be much higher than 4 billion
Then also part of the overseas stock market rulings is that they have to disclose any problems they might have or expect to encounter so that investors are aware of this... which I have a funny feeling that they have only said they are expecting a bit of a loss with the SNO and people switching to broadband
All this happened on $izwe's Watch... and if Papi hangs about much longer, some might call him Papi the Patsy
Firstly they might have hope that Telcordia might have backed off a bit and given them a discount, Telcordia might have given up and gone home, or that not having to pay them made their books look good, better than they should
This is not the only case that is pending against Telkom, on top of that Telkom are trying to worm their way out of a Competition Commission fine of 4 Billion Rand which will take the wind out of their bottom line, and if that's not bad enough I hear that there is another complaint going into the Competition Commission and the fine which is based on Gross turnover of the complaint will be much higher than 4 billion
Then also part of the overseas stock market rulings is that they have to disclose any problems they might have or expect to encounter so that investors are aware of this... which I have a funny feeling that they have only said they are expecting a bit of a loss with the SNO and people switching to broadband
All this happened on $izwe's Watch... and if Papi hangs about much longer, some might call him Papi the Patsy
Debbie
Banned
Difficult article to read for me, I got so angry because...ja...grrr.
Questions-
*Is this ruling a show of democracy for the benefit of outsiders? Is it just a 'facade' to prove how democratic SA is and how well our legal system delivers justice?
*Would this ruling have gone the same way had Telcordia been a South African company?
*Would this ruling have gone the same way if Telkom was not NYSE-listed? I figure Telkom's NYSE-listed status makes them open to certain scrutinies and pressures that could potentially be initiated (as back up, had Telcordia lost) from within the US. I don't know.
These are just suggestions. I have no evidence to prove anything said above, I'm just throwig these ideas out there.
I make these suggestions having seen first hand the way various courts, particulaly the Pretoria High Court, has handled other cases involving Telkom. My personal favourite atrocity was when a judge threatened to make a witness pay for courts costs. Oh, then of course there was that time when the judge refused to read the application because one (short) affidavit was not double-spaced. And as for the regsitrar of companies- lets not even go there. Basically, Telkom has pretty much NEVER been held accountable. So why would a different tune be sung now?
Questions-
*Is this ruling a show of democracy for the benefit of outsiders? Is it just a 'facade' to prove how democratic SA is and how well our legal system delivers justice?
*Would this ruling have gone the same way had Telcordia been a South African company?
*Would this ruling have gone the same way if Telkom was not NYSE-listed? I figure Telkom's NYSE-listed status makes them open to certain scrutinies and pressures that could potentially be initiated (as back up, had Telcordia lost) from within the US. I don't know.
These are just suggestions. I have no evidence to prove anything said above, I'm just throwig these ideas out there.
I make these suggestions having seen first hand the way various courts, particulaly the Pretoria High Court, has handled other cases involving Telkom. My personal favourite atrocity was when a judge threatened to make a witness pay for courts costs. Oh, then of course there was that time when the judge refused to read the application because one (short) affidavit was not double-spaced. And as for the regsitrar of companies- lets not even go there. Basically, Telkom has pretty much NEVER been held accountable. So why would a different tune be sung now?
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dominic
Legal Expert: Telecoms
honestly i would answer the questions as follows
*no. definitely not.
*yes
*yes
the judgement is a public document and will show a demonstrated application of settled law
Debbie
Banned
I am mildly familiar with what happened here, and of course Telcordia should have won.
But dominic we have seen Telkom get away with the most outrageous things in this country. Honestly, I question whether Telkom would have been held accountable. They still have not been held accountable re CompCom, and the 'judgement' there was twice the size of what's at stake here.
But dominic we have seen Telkom get away with the most outrageous things in this country. Honestly, I question whether Telkom would have been held accountable. They still have not been held accountable re CompCom, and the 'judgement' there was twice the size of what's at stake here.
dominic
Legal Expert: Telecoms
i am not sure that a review of case law delivered by the High Court and SCA would indicate any bias in favour of telkom
you need to separate out a judgement which is an impartial application of law to fact as against telkom's ability to manipulate the legal process and the vagaries of telecomms law for its own ends + political influence in the process as opposed to the actual judgement. the compcom matter is yet to be heard in court and no final judgement has been delivered - in this matter telkom has taken advantage of loopholes left in the law and the relationship between the jurisdiction of ICASA as opposed to that of the Comp Commission. Given the size of the potential fine telkom will obviously do everything within its power to avoid the matter coming to a final conclusion and matters in the high court typically take 2-4 years to come to trial. this can be further extended by a litigant adopting a strategy of delay at every turn.
i do know that this matter will be moving forward in the new year...
is telkom favoured by the courts? no.
is telkom as a wealthy monopoly with close-ties to government and government vested interests favoured by the legal system? yes, but that is more a story of legal systems the world over that favour the monied and connected over the not
Debbie
Banned
Thanks dominic. My limited experience has shown varying degrees of old-fashioned incompetance in the courts+, and after a while one starts to wonder whether it is indeed incompetance or whether there is something more going on.
Let's see what happens with the CompCom thing.