Telkom warns over Eskom load shedding

[Paul Hjul]

How about the mines and aluminium smelters?

different economics ...
those industries are inclined to demand high quantity on site at a low price

I imagine NOs are paying the municipal rate for the bulk of their electricity and need a multisite approach.

Note I am not suggesting that NOs should replicate a national grid but rather that they should produce their own electricity requirements and feed in and off at a zero base - if they produce more than they need they should feed in at the higher rather than lower tariff

 

[Paul Hjul]

although mines and smelters acquiring cheap electricity should have wet coal clauses (or snow days or whatever else you want to call a first to carry strain)

 

[MickeyD]

different economics ...
those industries are inclined to demand high quantity on site at a low price

I imagine NOs are paying the municipal rate for the bulk of their electricity and need a multisite approach.

Note I am not suggesting that NOs should replicate a national grid but rather that they should produce their own electricity requirements and feed in and off at a zero base - if they produce more than they need they should feed in at the higher rather than lower tariff

Not possible if you take into consideration their total geographical outlay.

 

[ponder]

I honestly think LNOs (large network operators) should actually be obligated to be net zero power users and satisfy their full consumption of electricity using "clean" "sustainable" (in the ecowarrior sense ...) on a capacity by capacity basis - so Vodacom, MTN, Telkom, CellC, Neotel, SABC, Naspers etc ... would all need to produce the amount of electricity which they consume either by taking facilities off the grid or by investing in plants.

And what would building this cost? Would people be happy if this cost was past on to them? Power generation is not their core business, why should everybody start constructing their own power plants when the national utility starts failing due to a lack of planning, mismanagement, incompetence and whatever else.

I would usually agree with you but this time I think you have lost your way. Who's next, airports, harbours, mines, hospitals?

 

[Paul Hjul]

Not possible if you take into consideration their total geographical outlay.

why?
my whole point is that because of the geographical outlay NOs should be acquiring electricity from the grid on site at zero charge but must equal the load

I doubt - but haven't confirmed - that NOs are able to get the majority of their electricity at the same low price as the mines and smelters and are instead paying the horrendous tax to municipalities that is the difference between the price leaving plant and the price entering. By setting specifications of non-coal generation for NOs they pay more per kilowatt hour than what Eskom gets but they pay less than what it costs to the municipalities

 

[ponder]

different economics ...
those industries are inclined to demand high quantity on site at a low price

I imagine NOs are paying the municipal rate for the bulk of their electricity and need a multisite approach.

Note I am not suggesting that NOs should replicate a national grid but rather that they should produce their own electricity requirements and feed in and off at a zero base - if they produce more than they need they should feed in at the higher rather than lower tariff

Why should one industry pay less than another? Have you tried feeding back into the grid and getting paid for it or getting a rebate? Have a look at what tongaat hulett sugar mills are battling with currently.

 

[Paul Hjul]

And what would building this cost? Would people be happy if this cost was past on to them? Power generation is not their core business, why should everybody start constructing their own power plants when the national utility starts failing due to a lack of planning, mismanagement, incompetence and whatever else.

I would usually agree with you but this time I think you have lost your way. Who's next, airports, harbours, mines, hospitals?

The whole point is that we need a private sector energy production sector.
It isn't because Eskom is failing that this is proposed but rather because it is a mechanism to bring on stream private energy providers.

In a proper free energy market you'd quite possibly find that MOs would actually be selling electricity (not as much as they buy) and IIRC the paper manufacturing industry are currently a net power producer because they are allowed to be. The Chamber of Mines uses the fact that the mines pulling out of purchasing from Eskom - by producing their own - would unhinge Eskom as a bargaining chip (hence my statement "different economics ...")

If Vodacom could get their spectrum I am sure they'd gladly assume a self provisioning rule for electricity, phased in of course

 

[MickeyD]

why?
my whole point is that because of the geographical outlay NOs should be acquiring electricity from the grid on site at zero charge but must equal the load

I doubt - but haven't confirmed - that NOs are able to get the majority of their electricity at the same low price as the mines and smelters and are instead paying the horrendous tax to municipalities that is the difference between the price leaving plant and the price entering. By setting specifications of non-coal generation for NOs they pay more per kilowatt hour than what Eskom gets but they pay less than what it costs to the municipalities

No, they don't. The NOs have to source their electrical feeds from the local muni's and only deal directly with Eskom in non-muni fed areas. And they don't get discounts - they pay the same as any other business does.

 

[MickeyD]

The whole point is that we need a private sector energy production sector.
It isn't because Eskom is failing that this is proposed but rather because it is a mechanism to bring on stream private energy providers.

In a proper free energy market you'd quite possibly find that MOs would actually be selling electricity (not as much as they buy) and IIRC the paper manufacturing industry are currently a net power producer because they are allowed to be. The Chamber of Mines uses the fact that the mines pulling out of purchasing from Eskom - by producing their own - would unhinge Eskom as a bargaining chip (hence my statement "different economics ...")

If Vodacom could get their spectrum I am sure they'd gladly assume a self provisioning rule for electricity, phased in of course

Check your Acts to see if they are allowed to go off grid without being penalised...

 

[Paul Hjul]

Why should one industry pay less than another?

Why should mines get cheaper electricity than houses - they do

Have you tried feeding back into the grid and getting paid for it or getting a rebate? Have a look at what tongaat hulett sugar mills are battling with currently.

This is exactly my point the feed in tariff structures are being held ransom and so on and massive **** is needing to filter in - with REDS not coming into being and transmission and feed proving a problem.

 

[ponder]

No, they don't. The NOs have to source their electrical feeds from the local muni's and only deal directly with Eskom in non-muni fed areas. And they don't get discounts - they pay the same as any other business does.

This ^

 

[Paul Hjul]

No, they don't. The NOs have to source their electrical feeds from the local muni's and only deal directly with Eskom in non-muni fed areas. And they don't get discounts - they pay the same as any other business does.

thats what I thought

so my point is an amendment to the ECA providing that iECNs are able to connect without charge and must equalize their pull (regardless of where it is) as stated on the equipment specifications must be matched by "sustainable energy" production by the iECN

it requires the NOs to raise capital etc ... to build the plant but is a massive OPEX saving despite the fact they are using "more expensive" (at plant) electricity.

 

[ponder]

This is exactly my point the feed in tariff structures are being held ransom and so on and massive **** is needing to filter in - with REDS not coming into being and transmission and feed proving a problem.

That is not the paper mills, sugar mills, network operators or other entities fault. They are all able and willing to push back into the grid but they can't! "lack of planning, mismanagement, incompetence"

 

[Paul Hjul]

That is not the paper mills, sugar mills, network operators or other entities fault. They are all able and willing to push back into the grid but they can't! "lack of planning, mismanagement, incompetence"

fully agreed, but arguing the same point
except that what I am suggesting is that NOs are uniquely placed to be able to take a zero feed position which hurts the municipalities, helps Eskom and ...

I am arguing for a statutory amendment as part of an opening of the energy market

 

[ponder]

thats what I thought

so my point is an amendment to the ECA providing that iECNs are able to connect without charge and must equalize their pull (regardless of where it is) as stated on the equipment specifications must be matched by "sustainable energy" production by the iECN

it requires the NOs to raise capital etc ... to build the plant but is a massive OPEX saving despite the fact they are using "more expensive" (at plant) electricity.

That is not gonna happen, sustainable/green energy is gonna cost more than the coal fired dirty energy from eskom. There are no tax breaks, there are no avenues/rewards for feeding back into the grid so why spend all that opex you can't recover.

 

[MickeyD]

fully agreed, but arguing the same point
except that what I am suggesting is that NOs are uniquely placed to be able to take a zero feed position which hurts the municipalities, helps Eskom and ...

I am arguing for a statutory amendment as part of an opening of the energy market

What type of green technology are you proposing?

 

[AthenianOwl]

Oh sweet baby jesus, another excuse...

Internet goes to shyte
ISP: It's Telkom
Telkom: It's Eskom
Eskom: Go **** yourself

Zuma: HAHAHA!

 

[HavocXphere]

Check again... R35bn vs R30bn

hehe...I guess things improved then. I just recall it being big news during the Voda unbundling. Still...most other companies are running a couple times book value.

@Paul - personally I doubt the telecoms make much of a diff energy wise - I doubt they use much. Personally I'd rather like to see legislation forcing cell companies to roll heavy power backup gear at their towers...that'll help overall GDP wise. We really need the cell infrastructure to stay stable during these trying times...a businessman without power can rely on the 4+hour battery charge on his laptop...but a businessman without cell coverage...thats not going to end well.

 

[Paul Hjul]

That is not gonna happen, sustainable/green energy is gonna cost more than the coal fired dirty energy from eskom. There are no tax breaks, there are no avenues/rewards for feeding back into the grid so why spend all that opex you can't recover.

The price difference between plant and site with municipal squander makes up more than the anything else

 

[ponder]

except that what I am suggesting is that NOs are uniquely placed to be able to take a zero feed position which hurts the municipalities, helps Eskom and ...

It will cost them more to take that stance which in turn will be passed onto the consumer. In other countries this might work but not in SA until such time as we have an overhaul of legislation, taxation and a few other things.