Tesla Powerwall: SA pricing questions

Super excited to get one. Hopefully I wont have to import my own
 
garp said:
Can somebody explain why this isn't just an inverter with battery backup in a nice case?
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The nice case (and size) is the most important part, and the part that everyone else sucks at
 
Drunkard #1 said:
Exactly. Panasonic VRLAs retail at R23 000 for the same energy as the 10kWh unit, will last just as long, are available for collection today, but have a peak power in excess of 25kW (Powerwall: 2kW). You need to add a few grand to pretty the whole system up (enclosure and switchgear), but it still comes it at less than Tesla's R42 000 excl VAT and customs and shipping and margins and... Basically R55 000+.
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There is nothing you can do that will make that system small and of good design
 
JStrike said:
There is nothing you can do that will make that system small and of good design
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He's also missing that Lithium has far more usable capacity than Lead Acid.

VRLA's may retail at R23,000 for the same energy as the 10KW unit, but they won't give you 10KW usable.
More like 3KW usable (30% DoD), or 5KW if you want a much lower lifetime (50% DoD).

The Lithium will on the other hand give you double that at a safe depth of discharge. - 70% is a safe number for Lithium, and that would give you 7KW usable out of that 10KW.

Which means that for a correct comparison, its more like 23,000 / 3 x 7 = R53666 for Lead Acid of similar capacity. [ 23,000 = 3KW usable. 23,000 / 3 = Price per KW usable. Multiply by 7 for 7KW usable ]
Which also means that the Lithium Powerwall is fairly priced to take out Lead Acid, as I expect it to be in the 50k- 60k rand locally with taxes, duties and clearance.
 
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Hype. I'll believe it when I see it implemented in action in SA at a reasonable price. The US price is not reasonable for South Africans, it's a price for Americans, Germans, Brits and Japanese, not South Africans. Sorry. But good to have more competition. Those who live in Camps Bay and Bishops' Court can get one on launch day by importing. There are also Ferrari shops in SA and it is really a nice car to own.
 
JStrike said:
The nice case (and size) is the most important part, and the part that everyone else sucks at
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That's only an issue for people who live in small flats and houses. SA where people who can afford this usually have more than enough space - the cute case - someone can put "Battery-tan" stickers on it too and its size is not such a big factor. Pricing and longevity are at issue and while the latter is probably good, even the US price is not affordable in SA (as it is affordable in much richer USA).

Also the second issue is the pricing of electricity. South Africa still has a sh-tty, like many other things inherited from the Nats and upgraded by the ANC, system of single electricity tariff. Elsewhere you pay less for electricity in the early hours of the morning - eg. 12am to 6pm - and that also makes this thing more economically sensible. Solar tech is also cheaper and with a wider selection of products. We just suck in all regards. We do have one benefit and that is one that even the government can't fsck up yet and that's plenty of sun shine. They need to just figure out a way to tax the sunshine after all the government is the reason why the sun shines.
 
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Space_Chief said:
That's only an issue for people who live in small flats and houses. SA where people who can afford this usually have more than enough space - the cute case - someone can put "Battery-tan" stickers on it too and its size is not such a big factor. Pricing and longevity are at issue and while the latter is probably good, even the US price is not affordable in SA (as it is affordable in much richer USA).

Also the second issue is the pricing of electricity. South Africa still has a sh-tty, like many other things inherited from the Nats and upgraded by the ANC, system of single electricity tariff. Elsewhere you pay less for electricity in the early hours of the morning - eg. 12am to 6pm - and that also makes this thing more economically sensible. Solar tech is also cheaper and with a wider selection of products. We just suck in all regards. We do have one benefit and that is one that even the government can't fsck up yet and that's plenty of sun shine. They need to just figure out a way to tax the sunshine after all the government is the reason why the sun shines.
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Excuse me? The small flats and houses around me (mine included) vary from R4m - R120m and start at R40 000 per m2. People in big houses do not necessarily have money (And they usually don't have money. They have had to move out to the burbs because of necessity, not choice)
 
Space_Chief said:
Hype. I'll believe it when I see it implemented in action in SA at a reasonable price. The US price is not reasonable for South Africans, it's a price for Americans, Germans, Brits and Japanese, not South Africans. Sorry. But good to have more competition. Those who live in Camps Bay and Bishops' Court can get one on launch day by importing. There are also Ferrari shops in SA and it is really a nice car to own.
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What makes you think this is aimed for the poorer and middle classes? Tesla and their products are aimed directly at the upper end of the market
 
JStrike said:
There is nothing you can do that will make that system small and of good design
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JStrike said:
The nice case (and size) is the most important part, and the part that everyone else sucks at
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You're a know crApple fanboi, so obviously you'd prefer a ****ty, overpriced, underspeced product in a shiny case, to an ugly, cheap and efficient model.

lsheed_cn said:
He's also missing that Lithium has far more usable capacity than Lead Acid.

VRLA's may retail at R23,000 for the same energy as the 10KW unit, but they won't give you 10KW usable.
More like 3KW usable (30% DoD), or 5KW if you want a much lower lifetime (50% DoD).

The Lithium will on the other hand give you double that at a safe depth of discharge. - 70% is a safe number for Lithium, and that would give you 7KW usable out of that 10KW.

Which means that for a correct comparison, its more like 23,000 / 3 x 7 = R53666 for Lead Acid of similar capacity. [ 23,000 = 3KW usable. 23,000 / 3 = Price per KW usable. Multiply by 7 for 7KW usable ]
Which also means that the Lithium Powerwall is fairly priced to take out Lead Acid, as I expect it to be in the 50k- 60k rand locally with taxes, duties and clearance.
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My figures come straight from the Panasonic datasheet. 10kW to 10.8V. They'll give you 10 years easily like that. I've had them hanging on my wall for two years already and expect another 12.

Don't forget that you'll need seven of Tesla's "we know what's best for you" crapolas to give you the 60A that you've got coming into your DB, whereas VRLAs are available in bespoke arrangements from 30W or 0.008kWh (1.3Ah 6V) to 76kW or 48kWh (120Ah 480V). crApple-like indeed
 
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I think saying it 'like the iPhone of the battery world' is a negative :/

Sounded interesting until I heard that
 
JStrike said:
What makes you think this is aimed for the poorer and middle classes? Tesla and their products are aimed directly at the upper end of the market
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Who can afford it at the moment, and also use large amounts of electricity. Which means the load on the urban grid during peak hours will drop. Imagine all those entitled Tesla drivers hadn't bought roadsters, but had bought a Tesla Bus - freeing up space on the roads.
 
Drunkard #1 said:
You're a know crApple fanboi, so obviously you'd prefer a ****ty, overpriced, underspeced product in a shiny case, to an ugly, cheap and efficient model.
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Go on, insult me some more. Get it off your chest
 
Drunkard #1 said:
You're a know crApple fanboi, so obviously you'd prefer a ****ty, overpriced, underspeced product in a shiny case, to an ugly, cheap and efficient model.



My figures come straight from the Panasonic datasheet. 10kW to 10.8V. They'll give you 10 years easily like that. I've had them hanging on my wall for two years already and expect another 12.

Don't forget that you'll need seven of Tesla's "we know what's best for you" crapolas to give you the 60A that you've got coming into your DB, whereas VRLAs are available in bespoke arrangements from 30W or 0.008kWh (1.3Ah 6V) to 76kW or 48kWh (120Ah 480V). crApple-like indeed
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Hahahaha, why so much butthurt?

Have you just installed a massive solar power system in your house or something?
 
My figures come straight from the Panasonic datasheet. 10kW to 10.8V. They'll give you 10 years easily like that. I've had them hanging on my wall for two years already and expect another 12.
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Can you post a link to the datasheet then? Or more information about the exact model you're using?

As far as I'm aware there hasn't been any magic improvement on Lead Acid technology for a while now, and my figures are roughly correct.

PS batteries are not generally measured in years, they're generally measured in cycles at a given depth of discharge at a given temperature.

How you use them is up to you, I generally try to pick the best lifetime vs cost benefit to see where I want to discharge to for longest lifetime.

Will be happy to compare apples for apples once you give the data sheet, and I can check / work out.

PPS Insulting people is not necessarily the best way to put a point across.

Facts usually speak louder than ad hominem attacks.
 
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lsheed_cn said:
Can you post a link to the datasheet then? Or more information about the exact model you're using?

As far as I'm aware there hasn't been any magic improvement on Lead Acid technology for a while now, and my figures are roughly correct.

PS batteries are not generally measured in years, they're generally measured in cycles at a given depth of discharge at a given temperature.

How you use them is up to you, I generally try to pick the best lifetime vs cost benefit to see where I want to discharge to for longest lifetime.

Will be happy to compare apples for apples once you give the data sheet, and I can check / work out.

PPS Insulting people is not necessarily the best way to put a point across.

Facts usually speak louder than ad hominem attacks.
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http://www.cbidcenergy.co.za/admin/product_section/uploads/attach/LC-P1242_merged.pdf

Your figures are way off. VRLAs can be discharged to 10.8V hundreds of times (or once a week for 10 years), or lower, depending on the current draw.

dod.gif<--- entirely random Google images result, but it looks about right.

Their lifespan in years is just another figure to consider when making decisions. For my use-case (home backup), it's the deciding figure, since cycles and depth of discharge are unpredictable.

TCO is pretty much random when you're making assumptions for the next 20 years. Change one variable by 1%, and BOOM, you're R1 000 000 in the red.

And if you want to move forward on this issue, you're going to need to address the serious short-comings of the Powerwall: No choice (350V doesn't work for me - I need 192V nominal), piss-poor maximum power output (2kW, I mean, seriously, my kettle draws more than that), over priced and fragile. (and it vapour-ware)

And insulting people who add nothing to the debate is par for the course. We all agree that Tesla's crapola is prettier than my patchy beige enclosure sitting between a broken aircon, some spare tiles and half rotten kitchen units, and that's the way I like it. Doesn't make it better, unless you're a poser.
 
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