Tesla Powerwall: SA pricing questions

[Drunkard #1]

LMFAO. You're comparing a cheapo 500 cycle product to a 3000+ cycle one and calling the clearly superior product "crappola" because you don't need that level of superiority.

You're wrong on so many levels. Most importantly show me were the R55 000 crapola says it'll get 3000+ cycles, and last the 30+ years it'll take to notch up that number. Then show me proof that those numbers aren't just some marketers wet dream. Otherwise you're just talking out your arse, like "Mr solar" above you.

Then we can start discussing $/kWh, $/cycle and $/kW. Spoiler Alert: the Crapola loses all those contests, some of them embarrassingly badly. After that we can discuss how to get 4.5kW+ of DC power down from 350V+ to a usable 192V. Then we can discuss why it's a bad idea to invest in a fast moving technology on the basis of a 30 year design life projection.

No they're superior. They're too superior for what you need that doesn't make them inferior.

You fanbois are all the same. Retarded.

I guess a [-]Ford[/-] Tesla F-450 (the only model [-]Ford[/-] Tesla offers) is superior to a Hilux because it's got a bigger payload, despite the fact that it won't fit into my garage, drinks petrol, needs 84m to make a u-turn and can only be driven with a code C licence. God, I've resorted to analogies to dumb things down to your level. **** you. Either grow a brain or I'm not talking to you politely any more.

If [-]Apple[/-] Tesla didn't want a R165 000 crapola string to be compared head-to-head with a R16 000 VRLA string (and lose, badly), that shouldn't have limited their range to one product.

 

[AfricanTech]

Drunkard, you should do an article for Popular Mechanics on this topic.

You're fckng rude but that doesn't mean that you're wrong.

Very interesting and informative discussions above - I'd love to see it properly explored in print format (with like editors and so forth to weed out the emotion and disrespect of course)

 

[itareanlnotani]

After that we can discuss how to get 4.5kW+ of DC power down from 350V+ to a usable 192V. Then we can discuss why it's a bad idea to invest in a fast moving technology on the basis of a 30 year design life projection.

I can infer from that, your inverter is using 192v

Thats your choice, just because Tesla is targeting their choice at Hybrid inverters (that will take a range of DC inputs), doesn't make their solution bad, just different.

192V in your case, would mean you have at least 16x 12V batteries lying around feeding your inverter.

At a safe guesstimate of 100Ah a battery, that means you have 12v x 100A x 16 = 19200 nameplate capacity, or about 6400KWhr usable capacity @ 30% DoD, which will give you less cycle lifetime than Lithium (1500 cycles odd @ 30% DoD for your Lead Acid), vs 3000 cycles @ 70% DoD for Lithium.

1500 cycles for daily use @ 30% DoD, would give you a life of slightly under 5 years.
You previously said you paid 2300 a battery, so 16 x 2300 = R36800, for a 5 year lifetime if cycled daily @ 30% discharge.

Tesla's option will last 10 years at higher discharge rates.

Tesla's option is limited to 2KW output - 3.3KW output /hr peak so depending on your usage needs it may not fit, but its not badly priced.

36800 x 2 for yours to last 10 years at equivalent usage would bring your total cost to 73,600 for 10 years in an Apples for Apples comparison.

Tesla's 7KW option doesn't look too expensive now, does it?

It also doesn't cater into the fact that Lead Acid efficiency is in the 85% region (you lose 15% odd from putting power into the battery/ taking out of the battery), and Lithium is far more efficient at 95%+
15% of your energy is wasted going in/out of Lead Acid, vs far less going in/out of Lithium.

As another comparison, lets look at another option - LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate / LiFePO4)

3.2V / 100A is about 230RMB a pop in China before export etc.
Your inverters voltage of 192V means you need 60 odd batteries (probably 64).

64 x 3.2 x 100A = 20480W nameplate @ 14720RMB

Usable is 14KW though.

If you really only need 6KW, you could get 10KW worth of battery. (although you'd need to change inverter) for half that @ 7360RMB

Landed prices here will be about double the cost, so 10KW will be closer to R30,000, 20KW closer to R60,000 Add in another 5k odd for BMS, and thats cheaper than your Lead Acid solution, and offers a lot more benefits.


Some Lithium vs Lead Acid comparison here for those interested -
http://www.powertechsystems.eu/en/technics/lithium-ion-battery-advantages/

 

[Drunkard #1]

I can infer from that, your inverter is using 192v

Correct. But UPS, not inverter.

Thats your choice, just because Tesla is targeting their choice at Hybrid inverters (that will take a range of DC inputs), doesn't make their solution bad, just different.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "unusable, except for a niche market".

192V in your case, would mean you have at least 16x 12V batteries lying around feeding your inverter.

Exactly 16 batteries. No more, no less.

At a safe guesstimate of 100Ah

I use 42Ah batteries - they're common and don't stress the built in battery charger.

a battery, that means you have 12v x 100A x 16 = 19200 nameplate capacity,

12V x 42Ah x 16 = 8kWh.

or about 6400KWhr usable capacity @ 30% DoD, which will give you less cycle lifetime than Lithium (1500 cycles odd @ 30% DoD for your Lead Acid)

Where did I say I want 1500 cycles? I expect 500 cycles, which is about 10 years worth, so nameplate capacity = usable capacity.

, vs 3000 cycles @ 70% DoD for Lithium.

This is the problem. 1. You haven't provided proof of these numbers, especially since they'd need to last 30+ years to reach that number of cycles, and 2. If the capacity is there, I will use it. Installed capacity = Usable capacity. All your DoD numbers are doing is creating FUD. If you want to use a number of 70%, fine, we'll do the comparison an that basis, but I chose to use 100% for VRLA.

1500 cycles for daily use @ 30% DoD, would give you a life of slightly under 5 years.

Where did I say I discharge them daily? I discharge them when the power goes out.

You previously said you paid 2300 a battery

I did not.

, so 16 x 2300 = R36800,

16 x R1 000 = R16 000

for a 5

10

year lifetime if cycled daily

approximately weekly

@ 30% discharge.

100% discharge.

Tesla's option will last 10 years at higher discharge rates.

Don't care. It's all about $/year

Tesla's option is limited to 2KW output - 3.3KW output /hr peak so depending on your usage needs it may not fit, but its not badly priced.

What's the $/kW price? 6x VRLA? 10x times? Not badly priced, my arse.

36800 x 2

R16 000 x 1

for yours to last 10 years at equivalent usage would bring your total cost to 73,600

R16 000

for 10 years in an Apples for Apples comparison.

Tesla's 7KW option doesn't look too expensive now, does it?

Why would I look at their 7kWh option? It's even more costly than their 10kWh unit.

It also doesn't cater into the fact that Lead Acid efficiency is in the 85% region (you lose 15% odd from putting power into the battery/ taking out of the battery), and Lithium is far more efficient at 95%+
15% of your energy is wasted going in/out of Lead Acid, vs far less going in/out of Lithium.

You can add that into the calculation, after you've provided proof. Even then, 10% difference = 800Wh per cycle x 520 cycles (10 years) x R1.50/kWh = R624, worst case. How will I ever afford that.

As another comparison, lets look at another option - LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate / LiFePO4)

3.2V / 100A is about 230RMB a pop in China before export etc.
Your inverters voltage of 192V means you need 60 odd batteries (probably 64).

64 x 3.2 x 100A = 20480W nameplate @ 14720RMB

Usable is 14KW though.

If you really only need 6KW, you could get 10KW worth of battery. (although you'd need to change inverter) for half that @ 7360RMB

Landed prices here will be about double the cost, so 10KW will be closer to R30,000, 20KW closer to R60,000 Add in another 5k odd for BMS, and thats cheaper than your Lead Acid solution, and offers a lot more benefits.

You forgot the costs of the BMS, since the my battery charge is designed for VRLAs.

Some Lithium vs Lead Acid comparison here for those interested -
http://www.powertechsystems.eu/en/technics/lithium-ion-battery-advantages/

I don't have time to shoot down an entire dissertation of FUD.

 

[itareanlnotani]

A UPS is an inverter. Its also a charger. Just because it comes in one discrete unit, doesn't mean it doesn't incorporate both functions.

Tesla's choice of voltage, is that its easy to slot into many solutions. Not one specific one.
It could easily fit into my dual mppt inverter as another input for example (my inverter input caters from about 200-1000V)

You don't get it. Thats fine.
I don't need to argue the point.

Your needs are apparently weekly occasional backup.
You intend on killing your batteries faster than you need to. Thats also your choice. May not be completely financially sound, but its your choice.

 

[Drunkard #1]

A UPS is an inverter. Its also a charger. Just because it comes in one discrete unit, doesn't mean it doesn't incorporate both functions.

Tesla's choice of voltage, is that its easy to slot into many solutions. Not one specific one.
It could easily fit into my dual mppt inverter as another input for example (my inverter input caters from about 200-1000V)

You don't get it. Thats fine.
I don't need to argue the point.

Your needs are apparently weekly occasional backup.
You intend on killing your batteries faster than you need to. Thats also your choice. May not be completely financially sound, but its your choice.

I'm well aware that my UPSs include inverters, but like you said, it's a single unit. It's also designed for a specific purpose. And there are far more installed worldwide than stand alone inverters that can accommodate the Crapola's voltage.

You're the one that doesn't get it. Solar is for suckers, and until TOU billing becomes widespread, so is load shifting. And you can't argue your point, not won't.

My needs are what they are - but they're the same as 50 000 000 South Africans'. Edit: And exactly what the 10kWh Crapola claims to be designed for.

I kill my batteries at the best $/kWh rate. I also live in the real world, where you can't start a gennie at 3AM, so sometimes your batteries are just gonna go flat. I also only need to do that once or twice every 10 years, in the real world. It's the right decision. You know what would be the wrong decision? Paying R165 000 for 3 Crapolas + god knows how much (R100 000) to redesign a working system because Elon ****ing Musk thinks he knows what's best for me (sound familiar?). But I'm just the dumb user, so what do I know?

 

[w1z4rd]

Im ganna try get my families company to important and test some of these. They do a lot of solar installations due to the cost saving benefits they get.

 

[w1z4rd]

Solar is for suckers

derp

 

[JStrike]

Im ganna try get my families company to important and test some of these. They do a lot of solar installations due to the cost saving benefits they get.

I will be interested in buying one from you if you do import

 

[w1z4rd]

I will be interested in buying one from you if you do import

Okay, will let you know, have emailed my brother-in-law the link. He is way more advanced with me when it comes to electrical stuff (he builds sub-stations), if this offers good value compared to a traditional battery bank I can guarantee you he will be importing many of them (one of his companies installs high quality solar kits (they focus on high quality installations rather than the cheapest installations))

 

[Swa]

Drunkard, you keep comparing your situation of only needing a beetle to get you to where you want to go to a Ferrari. The Ferrari would clearly win out on almost every metric making it the superior choice. The Ferrari in this case is not targeted towards a niche market however but towards the mainstream solar market which is quite a big one and will only get bigger as these type of solutions get even more mainstream and cheaper. But please continue to just ignore everything that's presented to you.

 

[Drunkard #1]

I have no clue what anyone's talking about, so I'll just make wild comparisons, hoping to stir up the emotions of my fellow idiots.

I don't respond to trolls.

 

[spiderz]

Drunkard is right, he'll get about 450-500 cycles out of the VRLA batteries at 60-80% capacity...
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ACD4000/ACD4000PE1.pdf

That does seem to be in line with what you can expect of the cheaper end of lead acid batteries.

A better battery would be the :Trojan T105 - 225Amp/h 6V
does about 3000 @ 20%DOD and 1000 50%DOD

but if you are going for a BIG battery bank :
http://www.gwstore.co.za/site/store/index.php?type=view_product&id=898 - R 2,257.88
Saw them somewhere for R1600+-

Raylite 2 x MTE 25 S - 1660A/h 4Volts
http://www.gwstore.co.za/site/store/index.php?type=view_product&id=271
10000 @ 10%DOD
4500 @ 20%DOD
2000 @ 50%DOD

 

[Swa]

Drunkard is right, he'll get about 450-500 cycles out of the VRLA batteries at 60-80% capacity...
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ACD4000/ACD4000PE1.pdf

That does seem to be in line with what you can expect of the cheaper end of lead acid batteries.

A better battery would be the :Trojan T105 - 225Amp/h 6V
does about 3000 @ 20%DOD and 1000 50%DOD

but if you are going for a BIG battery bank :
http://www.gwstore.co.za/site/store/index.php?type=view_product&id=898 - R 2,257.88
Saw them somewhere for R1600+-

Raylite 2 x MTE 25 S - 1660A/h 4Volts
http://www.gwstore.co.za/site/store/index.php?type=view_product&id=271
10000 @ 10%DOD
4500 @ 20%DOD
2000 @ 50%DOD

Nobody is disputing that. It's his contention that that makes it a better battery. You get what you pay for.

 

[entrepr]

Just don't focus on the trees and lose sight of the forest.

Tesla's announcement is massive, and a game changer, just as the iPhone was

If you get lost in the detail of Powerwall 1.0 and try to compare specs with another battery, you will miss the point. This is about an industry catalyst - a big player betting heavily on the mass-production of battery storage to transform the way we view power generation and create an attainable transition path away from fossil fuels.

If that vision captures your imagination, then view the launch details, read the analyst articles etc. By all means, look at comparative technologies and suppliers in Japan and (more importantly) from China. This is still round 1

And remember that all the technology information, even the gigafactory design details, are all open source. Musk is an Apple-style innovator but trying to build, rather than control a new ecosystem.

 

[AfricanTech]

Just don't focus on the trees and lose sight of the forest.

Tesla's announcement is massive, and a game changer, just as the iPhone was

If you get lost in the detail of Powerwall 1.0 and try to compare specs with another battery, you will miss the point. This is about an industry catalyst - a big player betting heavily on the mass-production of battery storage to transform the way we view power generation and create an attainable transition path away from fossil fuels.

If that vision captures your imagination, then view the launch details, read the analyst articles etc. By all means, look at comparative technologies and suppliers in Japan and (more importantly) from China. This is still round 1

And remember that all the technology information, even the gigafactory design details, are all open source. Musk is an Apple-style innovator but trying to build, rather than control a new ecosystem.

Spot on

 

[zamicro]

Just don't focus on the trees and lose sight of the forest.

Tesla's announcement is massive, and a game changer, just as the iPhone was

If you get lost in the detail of Powerwall 1.0 and try to compare specs with another battery, you will miss the point. This is about an industry catalyst - a big player betting heavily on the mass-production of battery storage to transform the way we view power generation and create an attainable transition path away from fossil fuels.

If that vision captures your imagination, then view the launch details, read the analyst articles etc. By all means, look at comparative technologies and suppliers in Japan and (more importantly) from China. This is still round 1

And remember that all the technology information, even the gigafactory design details, are all open source. Musk is an Apple-style innovator but trying to build, rather than control a new ecosystem.

And this is what makes it special!

 

[Compton_effect]

Remember. Everything Musk does, is secondary to his main goal. Getting humanity off one planet and ensuring our continued survival. Tesla, SpaceX, Solarcity, he's not in it for profit. He's in it to radically change entire industries, from the inside out.