Tesla Powerwall: SA pricing questions

[JStrike]

And insulting people who add nothing to the debate is par for the course. We all agree that Tesla's crapola is prettier than my patchy beige enclosure sitting between a broken aircon, some spare tiles and half rotten kitchen units, and that's the way I like it. Doesn't make it better, unless you're a poser.

That's it. Insult people that like different things to you

 

[oober]

http://www.cbidcenergy.co.za/admin/product_section/uploads/attach/LC-P1242_merged.pdf

Your figures are way off. VRLAs can be discharged to 10.8V hundreds of times (or once a week for 10 years), or lower, depending on the current draw.

View attachment 213156<--- entirely random Google images result, but it looks about right.

Their lifespan in years is just another figure to consider when making decisions. For my use-case (home backup), it's the deciding figure, since cycles and depth of discharge are unpredictable.

TCO is pretty much random when you're making assumptions for the next 20 years. Change one variable by 1%, and BOOM, you're R1 000 000 in the red.

And if you want to move forward on this issue, you're going to need to address the serious short-comings of the Powerwall: No choice (350V doesn't work for me - I need 192V nominal), piss-poor maximum power output (2kW, I mean, seriously, my kettle draws more than that), over priced and fragile. (and it vapour-ware)

And insulting people who add nothing to the debate is par for the course. We all agree that Tesla's crapola is prettier than my patchy beige enclosure sitting between a broken aircon, some spare tiles and half rotten kitchen units, and that's the way I like it. Doesn't make it better, unless you're a poser.

Li-Ion variants would give you about 3000 cycles at 60% energy usage where these charts show only 950 cycles at 60% DOD.

 

[Cicero]

http://www.cbidcenergy.co.za/admin/product_section/uploads/attach/LC-P1242_merged.pdf

Your figures are way off. VRLAs can be discharged to 10.8V hundreds of times (or once a week for 10 years), or lower, depending on the current draw.

View attachment 213156<--- entirely random Google images result, but it looks about right.

Their lifespan in years is just another figure to consider when making decisions. For my use-case (home backup), it's the deciding figure, since cycles and depth of discharge are unpredictable.

TCO is pretty much random when you're making assumptions for the next 20 years. Change one variable by 1%, and BOOM, you're R1 000 000 in the red.

And if you want to move forward on this issue, you're going to need to address the serious short-comings of the Powerwall: No choice (350V doesn't work for me - I need 192V nominal), piss-poor maximum power output (2kW, I mean, seriously, my kettle draws more than that), over priced and fragile. (and it vapour-ware)

And insulting people who add nothing to the debate is par for the course. We all agree that Tesla's crapola is prettier than my patchy beige enclosure sitting between a broken aircon, some spare tiles and half rotten kitchen units, and that's the way I like it. Doesn't make it better, unless you're a poser.

And there it is...

 

[Swa]

I opened up to see actual local pricing. Instead it's just a crapload from some "expert" who's own product can't handle the pressure.

“Yes, the lithium-ions have a much longer service life, but the price tag is almost prohibitively expensive, therefore people tend to purchase the considerably cheaper standard lead-acid / AGM+Gel batteries.”

Yes people tend to purchase crap technologies that can only be discharged 30% total capacity instead of 100%. Deep charge is typically 50% for lead acid and even then it dramatically reduces lifespan. So you have to overprovision which means either way the "saving" is just a short sighted one. The 10 years is just the guarantee. I expect these to last between 15 to 20 years if you take good care of them. Which lead-acid battery has a 10 year guarantee?

Local pricing will need to include transportation costs, import duties, and profit margins for the dealers.

I thought the pricing already includes a profit margin. What gives local dealers the right to think they can add another profit margin over and above that? One would also think that with the current power crisis the government wouldn't charge duties or even vat for something that isn't available locally but I guess I'm dreaming there.

 

[Drunkard #1]

Li-Ion variants would give you about 3000 cycles at 60% energy usage where these charts show only 950 cycles at 60% DOD.

So what? Unless you're discharging your Powerwall everyday (and the 10kWh isn't rated for that), both are going to last the same number of years.

And there it is...

You know the difference between my lead acid batteries and your Powerwall? Mine exists.

I opened up to see actual local pricing. Instead it's just a crapload from some "expert" who's own product can't handle the pressure.


Yes people tend to purchase crap technologies that can only be discharged 30% total capacity instead of 100%. Deep charge is typically 50% for lead acid and even then it dramatically reduces lifespan. So you have to overprovision which means either way the "saving" is just a short sighted one. The 10 years is just the guarantee. I expect these to last between 15 to 20 years if you take good care of them. Which lead-acid battery has a 10 year guarantee?


I thought the pricing already includes a profit margin. What gives local dealers the right to think they can add another profit margin over and above that? One would also think that with the current power crisis the government wouldn't charge duties or even vat for something that isn't available locally but I guess I'm dreaming there.

This depth of discharge obsession is bull****. You buy batteries to work, not to win a pissing contest. My Panasonics cost R2 300/kWh, can easily supply the 4.5kW my UPS is capable of drawing, and last 10 years, so R1 600 per year, in my case. Your Crapola is R5 500/kWh, can only supply 2kW, and will probably last 10 years, you so R16 500 per year, in my case ('cause I'll need three of them to meet my peak needs). I don't particularly give a **** how many cycles that is, or what percentage discharge I get.

 

[cerebus]

I also wouldn't underestimate the value of 'it just works' storage systems. For solar to go fully mainstream it needs to get to a point where it's practically plug and play. I don't think the battery itself HAS to be attractively housed, because after all it can be placed in a broom cupboard or something and most of our switches aren't aesthetic, but it also doesn't hurt.

I also would caution against using thumb suck guidelines to estimate the continuous output of the system until it's released. I'm fairly optimistic about this Powerwall product, and even more so if the price pressure moves downwards by at least 15%.

 

[oober]

So what? Unless you're discharging your Powerwall everyday (and the 10kWh isn't rated for that), both are going to last the same number of years.



You know the difference between my lead acid batteries and your Powerwall? Mine exists.



This depth of discharge obsession is bull****. You buy batteries to work, not to win a pissing contest. My Panasonics cost R2 300/kWh, can easily supply the 4.5kW my UPS is capable of drawing, and last 10 years, so R1 600 per year, in my case. Your Crapola is R5 500/kWh, can only supply 2kW, and will probably last 10 years, you so R16 500 per year, in my case ('cause I'll need three of them to meet my peak needs). I don't particularly give a **** how many cycles that is, or what percentage discharge I get.

Must be trolling...

 

[Drunkard #1]

Must be trolling...

Because I have real world experience with this, and won't join your pissing contest?

 

[MrGray]

The nice case (and size) is the most important part, and the part that everyone else sucks at

Nah - this is the kind of thing you install in your garage/storeroom/broom closet. I have an 8kwh system in my garage and I can honestly say that I don't give a flying fig what it looks like.

 

[shogun]

Nah - this is the kind of thing you install in your garage/storeroom/broom closet. I have an 8kwh system in my garage and I can honestly say that I don't give a flying fig what it looks like.

If I was installing Lead Acid, I would definitely hide it... that thing however?... well I would put it front and center in my garage on an open wall in front of my car so I could gaze upon it every time I drove into my garage : P

 

[itareanlnotani]

Because I have real world experience with this, and won't join your pissing contest?

Actually sounds more like you don't know what you're talking about. I won't go there yet, as you haven't explained much yet, so I can't figure if you're just being an ****** or just uninformed.

The data sheets which are written by the manufacturers show wildly different cycle lifespans for your battery than you originally claimed.
They do show lifespans which correlate closely to what I said.

Either you're in for a rude shock when they live up to manufacturer lifespans, or you're using different discharge / usage than you've let on so far.


How many batteries do you have?
What sort of discharge to you run them to?
Cycle rates are daily? weekly? on outages?

If you can supply that, I can actually tell you what sort of lifetime they should have given the data sheets.

Lithium still works out better pricewise if you look at TCO imho..

 

[Cicero]

You know the difference between my lead acid batteries and your Powerwall? Mine exists.

Your butthurt exists as well. Carry on.

 

[cerebus]

Actually sounds more like you don't know what you're talking about. I won't go there yet, as you haven't explained much yet, so I can't figure if you're just being an ****** or just uninformed.

The data sheets which are written by the manufacturers show wildly different cycle lifespans for your battery than you originally claimed.
They do show lifespans which correlate closely to what I said.

Either you're in for a rude shock when they live up to manufacturer lifespans, or you're using different discharge / usage than you've let on so far.


How many batteries do you have?
What sort of discharge to you run them to?
Cycle rates are daily? weekly? on outages?

If you can supply that, I can actually tell you what sort of lifetime they should have given the data sheets.

Lithium still works out better pricewise if you look at TCO imho..

You're dealing with Drunkard here man.. he's just going to obnoxious you into quitting the debate.

 

[Drunkard #1]

Actually sounds more like you don't know what you're talking about. I won't go there yet, as you haven't explained much yet, so I can't figure if you're just being an ****** or just uninformed.

It would sound that way to someone without any clue at all.

The data sheets which are written by the manufacturers show wildly different cycle lifespans for your battery than you originally claimed.
They do show lifespans which correlate closely to what I said.

I want what you're smoking.

Either you're in for a rude shock when they live up to manufacturer lifespans, or you're using different discharge / usage than you've let on so far.

You're going to need to be a lot more specific than that.

How many batteries do you have?
What sort of discharge to you run them to?
Cycle rates are daily? weekly? on outages?

It's time you started answering my questions. I've entertained your head in the sand attitude for long enough.

If you can supply that, I can actually tell you what sort of lifetime they should have given the data sheets.

I've already done that. Being able to read a datasheet doesn't make you special.

Lithium still works out better pricewise if you look at TCO imho..

They don't, and your 20 forecasts are as reliable as a 20 year weather forecast.

 

[Drunkard #1]

Your butthurt exists as well. Carry on.

I'm not the one sitting in the dark.

 

[Drunkard #1]

You're dealing with Drunkard here man.. he's just going to obnoxious you into quitting the debate.

Oh I'm sorry, aren't I sufficiently accommodating of his FUD and shift-blame-and-deny tactics?

 

[itareanlnotani]

Looks more like you're being obnoxious, but thats my pov.
I'm also not the one sitting in the dark for what its worth.

No need to be antagonistic if you don't feel like answering its fine, but lets not derail the topic into rudeness.

 

[JStrike]

Nah - this is the kind of thing you install in your garage/storeroom/broom closet. I have an 8kwh system in my garage and I can honestly say that I don't give a flying fig what it looks like.

You could. I, however, don't like buying things that I have to hide away. And the Tesla Powerwall specifically address this.
Add to that the great technology, the smart features that get updated via other the air updates, and it is finally a battery tech I would actually buy

 

[Drunkard #1]

Looks more like you're being obnoxious, but thats my pov.
I'm also not the one sitting in the dark for what its worth.

No need to be antagonistic if you don't feel like answering its fine, but lets not derail the topic into rudeness.

I'm always obnoxious, and especially impatient when idiots ignore my questions because they have no answers, and think I won't notice.

But it's all on topic, since the topic is "why would anyone spend R55 000 on a Lithium battery that's inferior to Lead Acid in every important <see what I did there, JStrike> way."

 

[JStrike]

I'm always obnoxious, and especially impatient when idiots ignore my questions because they have no answers, and think I won't notice.

But it's all on topic, since the topic is "why would anyone spend R55 000 on a Lithium battery that's inferior to Lead Acid in every important <see what I did there, JStrike> way."

Except it is superior in a very important way, that you are leaving out. Design.
Design is important. If I want this in my house, then I want it to look good.

And that's not mentioning the smart software and OTA software updates