The Brexit Thread

[Dave]

Here’s a better map, showing the border.

 

[f2wohf]

Gibraltar airport is not on Spanish territory, it’s actually officially UK MOD property.

You can see where the border is from this map.View attachment 556719

That's what the MOD claims... For Spain, it's Spanish. Give back the land!

The airport is located on the isthmus that connects Gibraltar with the rest of the Iberian Peninsula. Whether or not the airport's territory was ceded by the Treaty of Utrecht is disputed by Spain and Britain.[21]Spain also claims that this territory was occupied step by step by England during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries to its current limit.[citation needed] In the spring of 1815, Spain claims an epidemic of yellow fever struck Gibraltar, so that the British authorities built several barracks as field isolation in the neutral zone. On 20 April 1815 Lt. Governor of Gibraltar, George Don agreed with the general commander of the Campo de Gibraltar, General Don José María de Alós, that "a large proportion of the inhabitants [of Gibraltar] to [..] not [have] they suffered fever, temporarily established on the neutral ground, as close as circumstances permit, in front of this fortress".[citation needed]

In 1908 the British government erected a fence that forms the actual border.[citation needed] Spain claims of the original 156 hectares of neutral ground, England annexed 106.[citation needed] In this location Gibraltar Airport was built.[citation needed]

Spain's continuing sovereignty dispute with the United Kingdom over the territory where the airport stands (different from the generic one on Gibraltar itself) has seriously affected the airport's operations. On 2 December 1987, an agreement was signed between the governments of the United Kingdom and Spain to allow the joint civil use of the airport.[22] The agreement foresaw the building of a new terminal in the neighbouring Spanish municipality of La Línea de la Concepción adjacent to the northern side of the existing frontier. However, the agreement was blocked by the Government of Gibraltar, led from 1988 by Joe Bossano. As a result, the agreement was never implemented.

Since then, Spain successfully excluded Gibraltar from European wide de-regulation initiatives, such as the Single European Sky programme preventing direct links from Gibraltar to the rest of the European Union (except the United Kingdom), on the grounds that no regulation that somehow recognises the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over the Gibraltar peninsula may be implemented without a previous agreement on the airport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_International_Airport

 

[Dave]

That's what the MOD claims... For Spain, it's Spanish. Give back the land!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_International_Airport

The Spanish have been whining since 1713.

The Treaty is clear.

The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.

Even with that right of ownership, the UK has said the future sovereignty of Gibraltar is held entirely by its citizens to decide.

You know that La Linea got its name from being the Spanish fortification line against Gibraltar? It’s fairly easy to see where the border would be, just from there the ruins of the Spanish forts still are.

Here’s a map of Gibraltar from the 18th century, the Spanish forts are on the left.

 

[f2wohf]

The Spanish have been whining since 1713.

The Treaty is clear.



Even with that right of ownership, the UK has said the future sovereignty of Gibraltar is held entirely by its citizens to decide.

You know that La Linea got its name from being the Spanish fortification line against Gibraltar? It’s fairly easy to see where the border would be, just from there the ruins of the Spanish forts still are.

Here’s a map of Gibraltar from the 18th century, the Spanish forts are on the left.

View attachment 556737

Isn’t the airfield after the fortifications and port and therefore not included in the treaty according to the maps?

Well, anyway the EU supports the claim and Spain has an enormous potential of blocking all incoming air traffic since the planes need to go through Spanish airspace.

 

[Dave]

Isn’t the airfield after the fortifications and port and therefore not included in the treaty according to the maps?

Well, anyway the EU supports the claim and Spain has an enormous potential of blocking all incoming air traffic since the planes need to go through Spanish airspace.

The border would run in the middle of the “neutral zone” which would be just north of the airport.

Here’s a finger painting on the 1790 map. Yellow the approx border, red the approx border.



The Spanish line was defined by the Spanish as 600 toises from the fort.

When work began on the Lines of Contravallation, the British again asserted that "although territorial jurisdiction was not ceded with the Fortress of Gibraltar by the Treaty of Utrecht, it is a recognised maxim and a constant usage in favour of fortified places, that the ground commended by their cannon pertains to them ..."[5] Once again the Spanish rejected this; the Spanish Secretary of State, the Marquis de la Paz, replied to a British démarche to point out that the "cannon shot rule" had not been agreed in the treaty, and that in any case "the ordinary range of cannon is 200 to 250 toises and the line is set more than 600 toises' distance from the fortress".[5] He noted that in fact the Spanish could have built the lines nearer to the fortress but "in order to maintain good relations [His Majesty] has sought to banish the not well founded misgivings of England, by causing the line to be taken back to the place where it is now situate[d]"

A toise is approximately 2 meters long.

You’ll also notice that your wiki fact is labelled as “citation needed”.

The airspace argument is more relevant to the Brexit question though, but only if the UK loses all rights to open skies, which I think is highly unlikely, as I don’t think it’s an EU only treaty.

 

[Dave]

That’s even without mentioning that whilst the Spanish will make the occasional moan about it, they’ll never take it further as they are in a more precarious legal position with regards Ceuta and Melilla on the North African coast.

Melilla airport requires overflight of Morocco from both directions of approach.

Spain has no safety net of an internationally recognised treaty ceding those areas to Spain.

 

[f2wohf]

The border would run in the middle of the “neutral zone” which would be just north of the airport.

Here’s a finger painting on the 1790 map. Yellow the approx border, red the approx border.

View attachment 556743

The Spanish line was defined by the Spanish as 600 toises from the fort.



A toise is approximately 2 meters long.

You’ll also notice that your wiki fact is labelled as “citation needed”.

The airspace argument is more relevant to the Brexit question though, but only if the UK loses all rights to open skies, which I think is highly unlikely, as I don’t think it’s an EU only treaty.

Basically the Spanish vision is that Gibraltar should not have expanded more than the red area (and not in the neutral zone either):

 

[Dave]

Basically the Spanish vision is that Gibraltar should not have expanded more than the red area (and not in the neutral zone either):

View attachment 556745

As the treaty also ceded the port of Gibraltar only the red is definitely not correct, it’s probably why the Spanish have never tried to take legal steps to recover what they’re claiming.

Not to mention Morocco will probably do the same thing to Spain the day after Spain tries it with Gibraltar.

 

[f2wohf]

As the treaty also ceded the port of Gibraltar only the red is definitely not correct, it’s probably why the Spanish have never tried to take legal steps to recover what they’re claiming.

Not to mention Morocco will probably do the same thing to Spain the day after Spain tries it with Gibraltar.

I never really studied the matter so I learn as I research it but I think the airport will probably end up being comanaged between the two in order to solve the issue (as it’s already done in Geneva or Basel).

 

[f2wohf]

As the treaty also ceded the port of Gibraltar only the red is definitely not correct, it’s probably why the Spanish have never tried to take legal steps to recover what they’re claiming.

Not to mention Morocco will probably do the same thing to Spain the day after Spain tries it with Gibraltar.

I never really studied the matter so I learn as I research it but I think the airport will probably end up being comanaged between the two in order to solve the issue (as it’s already done in Geneva or Basel).

 

[Dave]

I never really studied the matter so I learn as I research it but I think the airport will probably end up being comanaged between the two in order to solve the issue (as it’s already done in Geneva or Basel).

From what I remember that’s already been offered, the Spanish were supposed to be building a terminal on the Spanish side of the border, I think austerity after the 2009 crash slowed all large construction projects in Spain.

 

[f2wohf]

From what I remember that’s already been offered, the Spanish were supposed to be building a terminal on the Spanish side of the border, I think austerity after the 2009 crash slowed all large construction projects in Spain.

From what I read, Gibraltar (or the UK) were refusing Spanish police to be in the airport and you would have had 2 separate terminals for each country.

What Spain wants is full joint management of everything, Spanish and UK police and customs.

 

[Dave]

From what I read, Gibraltar (or the UK) were refusing Spanish police to be in the airport and you would have had 2 separate terminals for each country.

What Spain wants is full joint management of everything, Spanish and UK police and customs.

Having had a read I see the agreement is older than I thought.

On 2 December 1987, an agreement was signed between the governments of the United Kingdom and Spain to allow the joint civil use of the airport.[22]The agreement foresaw the building of a new terminal in the neighbouring Spanish municipality of La Línea de la Concepción adjacent to the northern side of the existing frontier. However, the agreement was blocked by the Government of Gibraltar, led from 1988 by Joe Bossano.

Blocked by the Gibraltar government, and as the UK does not interfere in the internal administration of Gibraltar it’s going to be stuck until they change their mind.

 

[f2wohf]

Having had a read I see the agreement is older than I thought.



Blocked by the Gibraltar government, and as the UK does not interfere in the internal administration of Gibraltar it’s going to be stuck until they change their mind.

Sounds like it's going to be a fun one to negotiate for the UK.

 

[Dave]

Sounds like it's going to be a fun one to negotiate for the UK.

The UK has the same stance for all British territories, “self determination is in the hands of the local population, we will not even attempt to negotiate without their participation”.

 

[f2wohf]

The UK has the same stance for all British territories, “self determination is in the hands of the local population, we will not even attempt to negotiate without their participation”.

I got that. Spain will say not my problem, it's under the crown. You give us this or no deal.

 

[Dave]

I got that. Spain will say not my problem, it's under the crown. You give us this or no deal.

Then it would be no deal.

Britain has gone to war over this principle.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Jaguar Land Rover says about 2,000 staff will go to three-day week

 

[f2wohf]

BMW to shut Mini factory for a month after Brexit day - Sky sources

Car giant BMW will shut its main British manufacturing factory immediately after Brexit day next year for several weeks, because of the rising risk of a "no-deal" divorce, Sky News has learned.

The famous Mini plant in Oxford will not produce cars for at least a month from 29 March 2019, as the German giant activates the next stage of its no-deal contingency plans.
During the referendum campaign a number of high profile Leave campaigners claimed that a great deal was inevitable because BMW would lobby German Chancellor Angela Merkel for one.
David Davis, who later went on to become Brexit secretary, claimed in Febraury 2016 that: "Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEO's would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel's door demanding access to the British market."
The development shows one of Europe's most successful and influential companies revealing how disruptive it expects no deal to be, and its lack of faith in a deal being reached.
Workers have been told that the annual summer maintenance shutdown will have to be moved to April, as the company is obliged to take action against its fears of a shutdown of the cross-channel supplies required to make its cars.

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-s...a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360

 

[Dave]

Democratic referendum on final Brexit deal would definitely be undemocratic, claims Brexiter terrified of losing it

Following a day of rallies across the United Kingdom campaigning for a democratic vote to determine if the will of the people is in favour of Brexit once the deal is known, a Brexiter has insisted this would be going against the will of the people.

Ardent Brexit supporter and paranoid retired council worker Simon Williams said, “I am sick and tired of people trying to thwart the will of the people by gauging the will of the people.

“There are dark forces at work in this country, people determined to give the population the opportunity to change their minds on Brexit once they actually know what Brexit is.

“This is clearly undemocratic because there is a risk that what I want might be on the losing side.

“When I campaigned to take back control I had no idea what I was talking about because I don’t really understand how our democracy and constitution works. One thing I did know however was that by returning sovereignty and democracy back to this island it wasn’t so people could vote against what I personally wanted.

“I was fed up with control being given to people in Brussels, now I find people all across the country are also trying to force things upon me, like further democratic votes, it’s just not what I voted for.

“The people get one vote, and one vote only, that’s how democracy works, anything after that is undemocratic and should be crushed with force.”

From
http://newsthump.com/2018/04/16/dem...ratic-claims-brexiter-terrified-of-losing-it/