The Brexit Thread

A

Ancalagon

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noxibox said:
That's completely irrelevant to the false claims being bandied about regarding the level of support for each party in the UK. The level of support is reflected in the actual percentage of votes received, not the number of seats allocated by a faulty system. And that goes just as much for the times when Labour seizes control with a minority vote. The system needs to be reformed so that the allocation of seats represent the actual choices of the voters.
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Ironically for you, Johnson himself wants to reform the system, although I don't know exactly how.

And with the parliamentary numbers he has, he can actually get reforms through. A party without a majority can do very little - as you saw with Theresa May's government.

Another irony is - a huge irony if you ask me - is that Theresa May likely had the better deal and it would have been a softer Brexit. But the politicians either couldn't accept the will of the people or couldn't make up their mind. And this happened because TM had no majority - she had no power to get anything done and had to rely on the opposition, which is why nothing worked.

Since Labour and Lib Dems blocked or obstructed any possible deal - even TM's arguably better and softer deal, we now have BJ who is going to ram through a hard deal. And the reason he can do this is that he now has the majority that TM would have loved to have.

In any case, there is no perfect system of government. As far as I recall, South Africa's system has you voting for a president, with MPs selected in proportion according to the number of votes that a party receives. The problem with this is that you do not have representation in government - there is no MP for Sandton or MP for Centurion. In the UK, if you have a problem, you can write to your MP and they will sort it out for you, take it to government if need be. This isn't possible in South Africa, and people are unhappy.

So I don't disagree that the UK system is unfair, but, 1) its unfair to Labour too and Labour has used it to their advantage in the past, 2) it has the benefit of representation at local government level, 3) it tends to result in majorities, which if you ask me are beneficial because the worst kind of government is an ineffective government like TM's government.
 
konfab

konfab

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Ancalagon said:
Ironically for you, Johnson himself wants to reform the system, although I don't know exactly how.

And with the parliamentary numbers he has, he can actually get reforms through. A party without a majority can do very little - as you saw with Theresa May's government.

Another irony is - a huge irony if you ask me - is that Theresa May likely had the better deal and it would have been a softer Brexit. But the politicians either couldn't accept the will of the people or couldn't make up their mind. And this happened because TM had no majority - she had no power to get anything done and had to rely on the opposition, which is why nothing worked.

Since Labour and Lib Dems blocked or obstructed any possible deal - even TM's arguably better and softer deal, we now have BJ who is going to ram through a hard deal. And the reason he can do this is that he now has the majority that TM would have loved to have.

In any case, there is no perfect system of government. As far as I recall, South Africa's system has you voting for a president, with MPs selected in proportion according to the number of votes that a party receives. The problem with this is that you do not have representation in government - there is no MP for Sandton or MP for Centurion. In the UK, if you have a problem, you can write to your MP and they will sort it out for you, take it to government if need be. This isn't possible in South Africa, and people are unhappy.

So I don't disagree that the UK system is unfair, but, 1) its unfair to Labour too and Labour has used it to their advantage in the past, 2) it has the benefit of representation at local government level, 3) it tends to result in majorities, which if you ask me are beneficial because the worst kind of government is an ineffective government like TM's government.
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Yup.

As imperfect as the constituency system is, it creates political accountability. Which is the reason why the ANC was so vehemently against it

Of the 21 Tories stripped of the whip in September, only four are now still MPs
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-rebelled-against-parties-BOOTED-Commons.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2019_suspension_of_rebel_Conservative_MPs

The reason why is that it keeps the power directly away from political parties. If these people had popular views, they would have been able to keep their seats.

If SA voting worked like this, Zuma would have been history by the time of his re-relection.
 
C4Cat

C4Cat

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ShaunSA said:
I'm wondering why you feel the need to defend yourself so strongly. Unless my post touched you on your studio :unsure:
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Sorry, I thought this was a forum where we get to discuss these issues. I'll remember in future that you're very sensitive and that it's not polite of me to respond to any of your posts. Erm, other than the one I've just responded to of course :X3:
 
A

Ancalagon

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konfab said:
There are people in the Labour party that believe that their policies are incredibly popular, which couldn't be more further from the truth.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205401731988959233
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Oh my God it hurts my ears to listen to that.

I should hope for a strong resurgent Labour party so that we can have good competition between Tory and Labour and end up with a better government..

....but I kinda hope that they stay on the far-left, so that when there is another election and Brexit is done and dusted, and Corbyn has retired, they can lose and have no one to blame. Imagine the Liberal tears! It will be worse than when Hilary lost to Trump.
 
konfab

konfab

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Ancalagon said:
Oh my God it hurts my ears to listen to that.

I should hope for a strong resurgent Labour party so that we can have good competition between Tory and Labour and end up with a better government..

....but I kinda hope that they stay on the far-left, so that when there is another election and Brexit is done and dusted, and Corbyn has retired, they can lose and have no one to blame. Imagine the Liberal tears! It will be worse than when Hilary lost to Trump.
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Just wait till Trump 2020 when Trump wins again.

You can the the Russians will be the scapegoat.
 
ToxicBunny

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R13... said:
I somehow doubt delivering for "the people" is the real motive here. Sounds more like doubling down on the rise of insular policies from this rising new order.
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I would tend to agree with this.. It has bugger all to do with the people at all.
 
Emjay

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R13... said:
I somehow doubt delivering for "the people" is the real motive here. Sounds more like doubling down on the rise of insular policies from this rising new order.
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Rising new order? Such as?
 
Emjay

Emjay

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R13... said:
The ones fronting anti globalization, hostility toward immigration (t&c apply), etc.
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Have you ever stopped to consider that it's the people rejecting this and not some sinister "front" group?
 
rietrot

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Ancalagon said:
I am a little worried about the no-extension bit, I must be honest.

While I agree that moving forward with Brexit is the best thing right now, I'd rather have a proper deal done rather than a rushed one.

I'd rather have a provision that says, parliament can choose whether to grant an extension based on how likely it looks that a deal will be achieved. If, by October 2020, we are still farting around, then no extension. But if it is looking close, rather just grant the extension so that we can get a proper deal.

Also I wonder if the EU can just unilaterally give us an extension? Does the UK need to ask for one?
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No. For any serious negotiations to take place you have to have a hard exit on the table. Otherwise they'll waste 3 more years BSing each other because the EU doesn't want Brexit so they'll keep on offering a bad deal
 
C4Cat

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rietrot said:
No. For any serious negotiations to take place you have to have a hard exit on the table. Otherwise they'll waste 3 more years BSing each other because the EU doesn't want Brexit so they'll keep on offering a bad deal
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No, at this point the EU wants Brexit to be over with, they are fed up with this whole ongoing saga - they wanted brexit to be done and dusted when Teresa May had a deal on the table. They want a good deal for themselves though, obviously, as does the UK, so they won't just take whatever BS Boris demands.
 
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krycor

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C4Cat said:
No, at this point the EU wants Brexit to be over with, they are fed up with this whole ongoing saga - they wanted brexit to be done and dusted when Teresa May had a deal on the table. They want a good deal for themselves though, obviously, as does the UK, so they won't just take whatever BS Boris demands.
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I think it’s stupid to think EU will offer them an awesome deal knowing that the UK wants to abuse it with a free trade deal which they’ve been dumb enough to be talking about as much as possible.

UK is pinning hopes on tax free industrial zones at ports to process raw materials (jobs) and then sell into EU(so never really enters UK and likely only fractional % would and then taxed differently).. something they do for poorer nations in the EU.

So yah.. if EU allows them the free ride they aiming for, every country in the EU will bolt. So the answer is nope.. they gonna suffer. Will be interesting if US signs a deal which is abused haha.
 
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