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Question of the Day: If you were buying a TV today, which brand would you choose?
The Gauteng E-tolling Thread
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marine1
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OzzieCapie
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For reference and enlightenment, need some clarification on issues since my last visit...also a bit of comparison to here.
Is there a limit on the tolls charged per month ? [Unlimited here]
Why is it deemed (by posters) illegal to require people to have an e-tag ? [ They require one here and have phased out all cash booths]
Why is it deemed (by posters) that SANRAL is acting illegally in getting owners details from registration? [ Here they will send any non e-Tag a legal invoice with the more than the usual legal consequenses of not paying...i.e. they are even protected by State Debt Recovery who can send a sheriff to impound assets]
Why do people want to use the services but feel they shouldn't be required to pay? [ no comparison here...no one refuses]
I have been to the control room of one of the largest tollways (M7 Sydney) and have seen the computers and screens with number plate recognition. It is a private company but they have almost instant details of all cars with tags that do not register (or no tags), they can send the legal invoices backed up by SDR, they even have speed sensors and have stats on entry and exit speeds at all gantries.
Further as a service to police, they can detect and track cars being chased or see whether a certain sought after car has used system and will pass on video details.
Because it is a private company administering transport infrastructure, they are legally backed by govt otherwise you would have anarchy, and thus people comply.
On a plus note, I have just returned from a 10 day visit to Melbourne. I hopped on M7 within two minutes - one traffic light ('robot' LoL), next traffic light was 30km after Melbourne exiting into suburbs. I by-passed Melbourne by using toll roads with my Sydney tag - alternates would have added 1 hr to a 8.5hr trip. The speed limit on 90% was 110 (open highway), used cruise and never went over speed through several unmarked cameras and averaged 107 according to trip computer.
Same on way back.
Gotta love those tolled by passes.
Is there a limit on the tolls charged per month ? [Unlimited here]
Why is it deemed (by posters) illegal to require people to have an e-tag ? [ They require one here and have phased out all cash booths]
Why is it deemed (by posters) that SANRAL is acting illegally in getting owners details from registration? [ Here they will send any non e-Tag a legal invoice with the more than the usual legal consequenses of not paying...i.e. they are even protected by State Debt Recovery who can send a sheriff to impound assets]
Why do people want to use the services but feel they shouldn't be required to pay? [ no comparison here...no one refuses]
I have been to the control room of one of the largest tollways (M7 Sydney) and have seen the computers and screens with number plate recognition. It is a private company but they have almost instant details of all cars with tags that do not register (or no tags), they can send the legal invoices backed up by SDR, they even have speed sensors and have stats on entry and exit speeds at all gantries.
Further as a service to police, they can detect and track cars being chased or see whether a certain sought after car has used system and will pass on video details.
Because it is a private company administering transport infrastructure, they are legally backed by govt otherwise you would have anarchy, and thus people comply.
On a plus note, I have just returned from a 10 day visit to Melbourne. I hopped on M7 within two minutes - one traffic light ('robot' LoL), next traffic light was 30km after Melbourne exiting into suburbs. I by-passed Melbourne by using toll roads with my Sydney tag - alternates would have added 1 hr to a 8.5hr trip. The speed limit on 90% was 110 (open highway), used cruise and never went over speed through several unmarked cameras and averaged 107 according to trip computer.
Same on way back.
Gotta love those tolled by passes.
If by "services" you mean the tar that was slapped on top of existing concrete lanes and 0 to 2 lanes added in some sections, you should Google Nkandla and "corruption in South Africa" to find the answers to your question.
Chevron
Serial breaker of phones
1. They didn't build new highways to toll, they just tolled the old ones.
2. We are paying for the highways via a fuel levy created for this purpose. The government doesn't allocate it to road maintenance and it goes into the fiscus.
3. The system is horribly inefficient and needs to die. Something like 30% admin costs.
This video will explain all to you:
[video=youtube_share;FWafWjfFNnE]http://youtu.be/FWafWjfFNnE[/video]
MrGray
Honorary Master
Please don't feed this troll, it's been thoroughly dealt with elsewhere and is clearly trying to stir again.
OzzieCapie
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Garp old chap good one LoL.....
all you guys are doing is 'garping on' about the same 1st world issues affecting yourself, whilst pretending to be concerned about what the low income earners will pay, the majority of whom don't yet have the standard of living to even use the roads, let alone be concerned about it. Work on that a bit. If those people were actually using the roads, then I would say it will be a 'good problem to have' and an indication at least that the standard of living has gone up.
None of my comments have been given a response, not even by your hero DJ with his selective figures, because I am 'outing' you guys as being only concerned about your own square metre you loive in.
But what is different to the rest of the world? In fact in South Africa, much less revenue is collected via fuel levy and registrations/licences and all of them put it in general funds and nowhere does it cover road maintenance that I know of. So fat chance of SA being able to afford it.
So what is the answer to the 'cap' per month? Is there one, what is it?
all you guys are doing is 'garping on' about the same 1st world issues affecting yourself, whilst pretending to be concerned about what the low income earners will pay, the majority of whom don't yet have the standard of living to even use the roads, let alone be concerned about it. Work on that a bit. If those people were actually using the roads, then I would say it will be a 'good problem to have' and an indication at least that the standard of living has gone up.
None of my comments have been given a response, not even by your hero DJ with his selective figures, because I am 'outing' you guys as being only concerned about your own square metre you loive in.
But what is different to the rest of the world? In fact in South Africa, much less revenue is collected via fuel levy and registrations/licences and all of them put it in general funds and nowhere does it cover road maintenance that I know of. So fat chance of SA being able to afford it.
So what is the answer to the 'cap' per month? Is there one, what is it?
phoneJunky
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Yes we do but only if you have an etag.
I don't think posters think it is illegal to require and etag. It just isn't a legal requirement and SANRAL isn't fully prepared to handle that. I still can't pay my account because I am not in the same province.
I think this is because we didn't consent to this on the registration form. I can't remember, but I think there would have been a clause regarding sharing of information, but I didn't do the registration of my car this time round.
I think this is because people didn't really know it was going to happen. Although I was informed by the local paper - not even a Gauteng one in 2007, when I came to Gauteng and asked the peoples opinion about this most didn't know about it and the few that did, didn't think it was going to be implemented. Most people thought the roads was being upgraded for 2010.
This is maybe SANRAL's fault because they could have done more to let the people know - the same with the media.
Ours won't have any communication with the police as far as I know. Would have been good if it did, as the gantries can also enforce average speed prosecution.
I think most people will also comply in time, it is not like any one can overturn this now. I am still holding out on getting tagged but this is more because of the fact that this is the first time the people want to fight something so strongly and it effects everyone in Gauteng (direct or indirect).
Our roads are nice too, and mostly free-flowing when I drive on it. Most people I know won't rack up a bill of more than R50 a month. But I do know a few people that will also go to the cap if the get an etag and will get over a R1500 a month bill if they don't.
And on the pricing. When SANRAL was asked how much it was going to cost per km, it was said up to 30c a km in 2006 and when they ran into problems changed their estimation to up to 50c in 2007. While I don't think most people even knew about this then, they never really sound certain about this. As it turns out it is 30c per km if you are tagged, but if you are not it can be up to 6 times more.
I also think most people are just frustrated with the irregular expenditure of tax money and then we have an additional "tax" opposed on us. Not that that is really SANRAL's fault. Legally I think SANRAL already won the battle as they probably did enough to let people that read the paper know.
But we will have to see how this turns out.
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OMB
Mountain Man
www.outa.co.za
When you've finished reading that get back into bed with House, I'm sure the 2 of you will enjoy each others company
MrGray
Honorary Master
Seriously folks, don't engage it. Click on it's profile an read it's other posts. It is either a SANRAL employee, an outright troll or a complete fool. Either way, don't waste your energy.
phoneJunky
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I speak to him a lot in some of the cricket forums so I doubt he is an employee.
And there is a few points I do agree with him, but I think his direct comparison with Australia is flawed. This system just doesn't seem to be all that well thought out for a South African context.
OzzieCapie
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Firstly to PhoneJunky,
Many thanks mate for your detailed and informative response. So what I would do as a private driver, just get a tag and go up to or under cap every month... R2/day for less stress on roads....what,, can you still get the cartoon section in paper for that?
Analogies to Aus are not 100% accurate, never said they were, but in there are things that are better with our system, and things that are worse. What is true is that the fuel levy/tax argument does not stack up anywhere in world and does not cover road maintenance...I have given estimates for SA revenue from that so that the people who can think for themselves can work out the propaganda from truth, and that SA's revenue is very low by like for like comparison.
We don't have caps..you do...that is relevant when arguing affordability. Then to talk about people <R8K/month one needs to also determine how many actually commute by car, and how much the cap is to the total commute spend.
ETC ETC
It is easy to mislead the sheep with fancy powerpoints and videos whilst being selective.
140 odd pages, followed by 71 pages and no one mentions advantages...that says something
Have read their propaganda and that of DJ's...I am more interested in reality which is why I asked you guys who are doing the driving and whinging.
Seriously Garp...It? It?.....I was going to give you the benefit of the 'when we' syndrome, but it seems you are a rolled gold knob. I didn't know that SANRAL employed consultants in Aus...where can I apply, seems they overpay a few people.
A troll tries to derail threads with off topic posts, they do not try to elicit information, provide counter argument, give examples of how it works elsewhere, expose biased whingers and propaganda etc.
As for fool...well, I seems I am not the sheep following the other sheep, enough said...I do not need to tell you what I do and have achieved.
...and by the way, the correct grammar is "whichever way..."
cheers
Many thanks mate for your detailed and informative response. So what I would do as a private driver, just get a tag and go up to or under cap every month... R2/day for less stress on roads....what,, can you still get the cartoon section in paper for that?
Analogies to Aus are not 100% accurate, never said they were, but in there are things that are better with our system, and things that are worse. What is true is that the fuel levy/tax argument does not stack up anywhere in world and does not cover road maintenance...I have given estimates for SA revenue from that so that the people who can think for themselves can work out the propaganda from truth, and that SA's revenue is very low by like for like comparison.
We don't have caps..you do...that is relevant when arguing affordability. Then to talk about people <R8K/month one needs to also determine how many actually commute by car, and how much the cap is to the total commute spend.
ETC ETC
It is easy to mislead the sheep with fancy powerpoints and videos whilst being selective.
140 odd pages, followed by 71 pages and no one mentions advantages...that says something
Have read their propaganda and that of DJ's...I am more interested in reality which is why I asked you guys who are doing the driving and whinging.
Seriously Garp...It? It?.....I was going to give you the benefit of the 'when we' syndrome, but it seems you are a rolled gold knob. I didn't know that SANRAL employed consultants in Aus...where can I apply, seems they overpay a few people.
A troll tries to derail threads with off topic posts, they do not try to elicit information, provide counter argument, give examples of how it works elsewhere, expose biased whingers and propaganda etc.
As for fool...well, I seems I am not the sheep following the other sheep, enough said...I do not need to tell you what I do and have achieved.
...and by the way, the correct grammar is "whichever way..."
cheers
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DominionZA
Executive Member
I have yet to find advantages on the tolled Road I take between Edenvale and Bedfordview daily. Traffic is still as bad as it has always been. Only difference is they want to charge me for using that road now.
supersunbird
Honorary Master
You (being in Australia) have nothing invested in this system and will not be affected by it, so even just questions concerning it might indicate trollish behaviour, arguing to its benefits just confirms that this indication might be correct.
Please number you questions next time...
A limit of R450 for REGISTERED e-tag holders. That is easily reached by using it 22 working days to travel between PTA and JHB, which 160 000 to 180 000 cars do everyday. (btw this rubbishes SANRALs claim that only 1% of vehicles will reach the cap, if nearly 10% of Gautengs registered vehicles travels that route. So we are being lied to, are you happy when people lie to you?)
It is not illegal not to have an e-tag, also you can use parts of this "tolled highway" without passing under a gantry and thus not paying, why do those people need to buy e-tags...
People have claimed they find it illegal to have their information shared from 3rd party sources (we now even have a law against it) in the same fashion e-mail spammers and telemarketers did, if they had not provided that information during vehicle registration. We understand that they can reasonably be expected to use the traffic registration system, but how do they get your e-mail address and cellphone numbers if you have not provided it to them during car registration? 3rd party databases, that's where.
Because we were not properly consulted beforehand and thus buy-in was not gotten before they went ahead, these are unasked for services with not much alternatives (Gautrain is filled to capacity during peak). Even a capped account can easily use up 3%-5% of an average employed city dwellers after tax income of R10 000 to R15 000. Uncapped its can get much worse, 6%-10% if not paid within 7 days and double or triple that if not. They only service is that traffic accidents are cleared somewhat effectively, but they don't do much to prevent accidents... nothing like any active policing at all on these roads (to prevent unroadworthy vehicles using it or prevent accidents from happening in the first place).
Now as to bypassing Melbourne, no relevance, one is being tolled for intracity travel. Pretoria and Johannesburg are merging, there is no gap between it at all anymore. If these toll roads had been built years ago that would have been fine, spatial development would have been different, now they come and put in smack dab on an already there city, not a new development.
Does the Australia system work the same as here in that sections can be used on the toll road without paying to use it?
MagicDude4Eva
Banned
What OzzieCapie (and Sanral and ANC) do not get is that there are more efficient ways to collect funds for road maintenance. If it was not for the overall problem that fuel-levy is going to the fiscus and is not attributed to road-maintenance, then we would not have a big problem at all - that's basic financial mismanagement of the government. The fuel levy would work very well for maintaining road-infrastructure if it was properly managed. To date I have not seen any report how the fuel levy is utilised towards traffic management.
When you look at Sanral, you will find corruption, misinformation and overspent. Collusion across construction companies during the GFIP project. The way tolling is done, is highly inefficient, as a huge amount of opex is used for administration and collection process. Something which you do not need by applying additional cost to the price of petrol or vehicle registration.
You can unfortunately not compare a banana republic like South Africa with Australia.
When you look at Sanral, you will find corruption, misinformation and overspent. Collusion across construction companies during the GFIP project. The way tolling is done, is highly inefficient, as a huge amount of opex is used for administration and collection process. Something which you do not need by applying additional cost to the price of petrol or vehicle registration.
You can unfortunately not compare a banana republic like South Africa with Australia.
I dont believe there is mismagement by the Government - I believe its bankrupt. Gordhan has said many times there is no money for public service increases and the Tax collections have not raised as much liquidity as expected. If a fuel levy was to be used, it would just go in to a black hole - hence using a private company to keep the money out of the fiscus; by doing so you eliminate some risk of the bonds being devalued.
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Ummm... maybe its bankrupt because money is being spend fruitlessly/misspent/stolen aka mismanaged
Ummm... maybe its bankrupt because money is being spend fruitlessly/misspent/stolen aka mismanaged
Point taken.. sould have phrased it differently.... 'The Government is bankrupt due to gross mismanagement of the fuscus - Adding more to the fuel levy will just put more money in to filling a black hole'
supersunbird
Honorary Master
That might be a point but they need to fix the black hole in the fiscus instead of punishing us with inefficient collection methods and telling lies...
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