The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
That might be a point but they need to fix the black hole in the fiscus instead of punishing us with inefficient collection methods and telling lies...

Dont know how good/bad the reference is, but since 2008 Govt spending has gone ballistic..
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/south-africa/government-spending

2009 Onwards the Govt has spent more than it collects
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/south-africa/government-budget

Finally... the Govt Debt (Foreign)
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/south-africa/external-debt
It came down for two quarters, but that doesnt negate the 4X debt from 2008.
 
Have read their propaganda and that of DJ's...I am more interested in reality which is why I asked you guys who are doing the driving and whinging.

Please explain, point by point, why DJ...'s information is inaccurate.

Your questions have been answered, time and again, and you refuse to engage further after that, instead choosing to ignore the replies and either ask the same questions again, or continue with your irrelevant moaning about us not liking the system.

You also apparently refuse to critically approach SANRAL and government's role in this fiasco. There are meek capitulations along the line of 'they could have done better', or 'maybe there are some problems', before you continue to moan about the people who criticise the system. The blatant mismanagement, lies, indifferent and dismissive attitude displayed by SANRAL and government, and overall ill-conceived system don't bother you much, it seems.
 
Ummm... maybe its bankrupt because money is being spend fruitlessly/misspent/stolen aka mismanaged ;)

Finally people are starting to understand!!

Our government has mis managed/spent so much they had to use their PENSION money to bring e-tolls to try gain a better income from us by exploiting road users. WE SAY NO, GOTO JAIL THEIVES FROM SANRAL TO ZUMA TO THE WHOLE ANC


We are a dictatorship until we revolt and change it, i'm afraid by the time we realize the votes are rigged too
 
Please explain, point by point, why DJ...'s information is inaccurate.

Your questions have been answered, time and again, and you refuse to engage further after that, instead choosing to ignore the replies and either ask the same questions again, or continue with your irrelevant moaning about us not liking the system.

You also apparently refuse to critically approach SANRAL and government's role in this fiasco. There are meek capitulations along the line of 'they could have done better', or 'maybe there are some problems', before you continue to moan about the people who criticise the system. The blatant mismanagement, lies, indifferent and dismissive attitude displayed by SANRAL and government, and overall ill-conceived system don't bother you much, it seems.

Dude, don't waste your time. If this person was really interested in the truth they would have found it already.
This thread and the previous one are chock full of answers and reasoning regarding the entire e-tolling system.
There is no point to feeding the trolls previously disseminated information.
 
Please explain, point by point, why DJ...'s information is inaccurate.

Notice how the troll called DJ...'s info and OUTA's propaganda?

Clearly he has a specific mindset and belief that we're all wrong.

Sounds like the kind of guy that did the country a favor by taking the chicken run.
 
Notice how the troll called DJ...'s info and OUTA's propaganda?

Clearly he has a specific mindset and belief that we're all wrong.

Sounds like the kind of guy that did the country a favor by taking the chicken run.

I have absolutely no idea what u just said
 
I have absolutely no idea what u just said

And you think you have the ability to judge and thus suggest people get banned? :erm: (just block him, like I've have done)

Let me explain what Ol' Mean Bastid is saying:

In the first sentence he says that OzzieCapie (aka the troll) calls DJ...'s info and OUTA's statements propaganda.

Then he says OzzieCapie has already made up his mind and and believe we are all wrong and he right.

Then he says that its good that OzzieCapie has left the country and ran away to Australia (aka the chicken run).

Clear enough?
 
I dont believe there is mismagement by the Government - I believe its bankrupt. Gordhan has said many times there is no money for public service increases and the Tax collections have not raised as much liquidity as expected. If a fuel levy was to be used, it would just go in to a black hole - hence using a private company to keep the money out of the fiscus; by doing so you eliminate some risk of the bonds being devalued.

why can't a road specific fuel levy be ring fenced, as are many other components of the fuel price?

Giving the govt more money, or removing responsibilities from the fiscus, will not get them to take more care with our money
 
Firstly to PhoneJunky,

Many thanks mate for your detailed and informative response. So what I would do as a private driver, just get a tag and go up to or under cap every month... R2/day for less stress on roads....what,, can you still get the cartoon section in paper for that?

Analogies to Aus are not 100% accurate, never said they were, but in there are things that are better with our system, and things that are worse. What is true is that the fuel levy/tax argument does not stack up anywhere in world and does not cover road maintenance...I have given estimates for SA revenue from that so that the people who can think for themselves can work out the propaganda from truth, and that SA's revenue is very low by like for like comparison.

We don't have caps..you do...that is relevant when arguing affordability. Then to talk about people <R8K/month one needs to also determine how many actually commute by car, and how much the cap is to the total commute spend.

ETC ETC

It is easy to mislead the sheep with fancy powerpoints and videos whilst being selective.
140 odd pages, followed by 71 pages and no one mentions advantages...that says something



Have read their propaganda and that of DJ's...I am more interested in reality which is why I asked you guys who are doing the driving and whinging.



Seriously Garp...It? It?.....I was going to give you the benefit of the 'when we' syndrome, but it seems you are a rolled gold knob. I didn't know that SANRAL employed consultants in Aus...where can I apply, seems they overpay a few people.

A troll tries to derail threads with off topic posts, they do not try to elicit information, provide counter argument, give examples of how it works elsewhere, expose biased whingers and propaganda etc.

As for fool...well, I seems I am not the sheep following the other sheep, enough said...I do not need to tell you what I do and have achieved.
...and by the way, the correct grammar is "whichever way..."

cheers

You are either:

a) a SANRAL employee or benefit from this e-tolling scam in some way
b) a complete fool for actually believing that this system is being implemented for any other reason besides stealing more money from South Africans for the greedy ruling party

Option b may seem harsh or rude from my side but if you are aware of even a fraction of the facts concerning e-tolls and the foreign company benefitting from it and the shareholding of this same entity, you wouldn't talk such garbage about there being any benefit to South African citizens.
 
And you think you have the ability to judge and thus suggest people get banned? :erm: (just block him, like I've have done)

Let me explain what Ol' Mean Bastid is saying:

In the first sentence he says that OzzieCapie (aka the troll) calls DJ...'s info and OUTA's statements propaganda.

Then he says OzzieCapie has already made up his mind and and believe we are all wrong and he right.

Then he says that its good that OzzieCapie has left the country and ran away to Australia (aka the chicken run).

Clear enough?

Thanks, I thought that's what I said :confused: :D
 
2014 – THE YEAR OF SANITY ON e-TOLLS?

One month after the big e-toll ‘switch on’ and society has witnessed a broad based people defiance campaign that many did not envisage possible. The extent of the rejection of e-tolls by Gauteng road users is not only in the 80 to 85% of freeway users refusing to purchase e-tags, but also in the clear signs of an estimated 1,5 million road users that will probably not pay their e-toll bills. “The situation unfolding, has all the signs of a very successful civil action – defiance campaign, the largest in our new democracy” says OUTA’s chairperson Wayne Duvenage. “It is a campaign driven by the denouncement of e-tolling from all sectors of society, Labour (Cosatu), the Churches (SACC), Business (SACCI, JCCI, BUSA, BMF) and civil society at large.”

To date, far too much has gone wrong with the entire matter for it to succeed. Tolling is one of those processes that requires almost everyone to pay, as you simply can’t have a situation where some people are paying whilst hundreds of thousands aren’t.

The authorities display of intimidation and threats of criminal prosecution exudes a belief that the middle-class motorist will eventually succumb and fall into line. This ‘big stick’ approach is a gamble which appears to be back-firing and giving rise to a heightened rebellious chorus of resistance. Without the majority of the public on board, there is not much more Sanral can do about it, other than continue with a warped belief that threats to criminalize overone million people, plus their spending of millions of taxpayer’s rands on a highly unsuccessful media campaign will make it work.

Harassment of motorists.

Throughout December, OUTA has received numerous messages from motorists, alarmed by calls from the e-toll Violations Processing Centre (VPC) demanding payment for e-tolls. Mobile phone numbers obtained through other databases are being used to contact motorists who have opted not to get e-tags or contract with the Electronic Tolling Company (ETC). These motorists are being ‘coerced’ and intimidated to immediately pay outstanding e-toll fees or be handed over for debt collection.

“This behavior confirms the dismal number of e-tag sales and that ETC are desperately trying to meet their contractual obligations to Sanral with measures aimed at herding in those motorists and companies who have not been tagged,” says Duvenage. “We are advising motorists not to allow the anxiety within ETC to be projected onto them, to stand their ground and insist that Sanral sticks to its original commitment to the public to handle non-registered e-toll road users by means of normal business practice. This means the issuance of a tax-invoices and the necessary detail of evidence of the correct vehicle passing under the various gantries.” Duvenage added that “hundreds of people who make contact with OUTA through the social media platforms have vowed in principle not to pay any e-toll fees, as they are sincerely disgusted with the entire debacle, the high costs, the lack of transparency and the irrationality of the system.”

In addition OUTA has received numerous messages from business operators with vehicle fleets who have opted not to contract with ETC via the e-tag facility. Many of these businesses are smaller to medium in size and are communicating collectively through local business associations, forming agreement pacts amongst themselves to defy the system. Clear in their expression is the “irrationality and unnecessary costs and onerous conditions placed on them, whilst there is too much waste and squandering of our taxes in other areas throughout the country,” as one business owner put it.

Examples of the frustrations people have recently experienced are:

Unsolicited advertising – through text messages calling for registration for e-tags via SMS to phones, using other organisations databases. One citizen asserted this as unsolicited advertising and believes this behavior by ETC to be in violation of the recently enacted Protection of Private Information Act (POPI).
Extreme inconvenience for e-toll payment by non-registered users. The online facility for non-registered users which initially allowed motorists to check their e-toll liability, and pay online or with a credit card, has been abruptly stopped. Motorists who call in to the call centre are now being told that they will have to travel to an e-toll customer centre to find out what they owe and pay the outstanding amount. One OUTA supporter who happens to be overseas for a month at present and who drove under the gantries on his way to OR Tambo airport asks “how are we supposed to pay if they make it impossible to do so?”
Targeting of Fleet operators. A number of business people have reported extremely prejudicial treatment for not contracting to fit e-tags. As business operators compliance with VAT regulations necessitates the issue of tax invoices for VAT computations. But the ETC’s Violations Processing Centre (VPC) are not obliging and insist that fleet operators can only obtain such documentation if they contract to buy e-tags, which is regarded as a flawed process and gross violation of their rights.
Outdated Data. Several individuals are reporting that the ETC has incorrect information on their database and their staff say they cannot update it “because it was provided by eNatis”. One motorist was informed of an exorbitant e-toll bill that seems to have been run up by someone else driving on his (cloned) vehicle license number, as his freeway use was minimalistic. He said he “couldn’t be bothered by the entire fiasco”.

The growing list of incidents are collectively painting a picture of a system that seriously lacks the required professional response handling capability and one which appears to be a state of crisis. “At this early stage, the system is creaking under the weight of a costly, cumbersome and unworkable administrative process,” says Duvenage, who goes on to explain that “E-tolling is successful in environments where high levels of trust between the public and the authorities exist (generated by transparency and excellent public engagement programs). They also work when there are low costs of administration (below 10%) and extremely high levels of public acceptance and compliance (over 90%). Virtually none of these factors exist within the Gauteng e-toll project and no matter what the outcome of theforthcoming elections or the verbal intimation from the authorities, as long at the current vast majority of road users boycott the e-toll system, it will fail and have to be funded by the fiscus.

The only question is whether the intransigence of SANRAL and Government will see beyond their blind e-toll obsession and their ears will open to hear of other options which the people have voiced a willingness to accept.OUTA sincerely hopes that sanity will prevail in 2014, to overcome this most unfortunate debacle, which is currently doing more damage than good for our country.
- See more at: http://www.outa.co.za/site/2014-the-year-of-sanity-on-e-tolls/#sthash.hp7S9G5y.dpuf
 
Firstly to PhoneJunky,

As for fool...well, I seems I am not the sheep following the other sheep, enough said...I do not need to tell you what I do and have achieved.
...and by the way, the correct grammar is "whichever way..."

cheers

Nope. But you do follow sheep around and make them nervous. No means no, and so does baaa.
 
I drove the highways for the first time just before Christmas to take my kids to see some Christmas lights. Have not paid and have no etag. I have no plans to pay until I see a final warning or threat of a court date as I am not willing to fight it that far but somehow I suspect it won't even get to that stage.

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. In the meantime I encourage everyone to try to frustrate the system as much as possible and encourage people to not buy etags.
 
The only way I'll pay is if I am sent a court summons and they are literally about to take me to jail.

I'm a law abiding citizen, I pay my fair share towards SARS and complete my tax return as honestly as possible every year. I pay all my fines and my rates and taxes have never fallen behind for more than 30 days.

But this e-toll rubbish is just too much and I think I speak for most of us here in saying that if I knew that the money collected would actually be put to good use then I would be the first in line for an e-tag. We all know that 95% of the money raised by this scam will go towards lining the pockets of corrupt government officials.

I'm going off on a rant here I know, I love this country though and the people in it but the level of corruption we are witnessing is just sickening. Zuma trying to pass a secrecy bill which basically meant that politicians could steal all the money they wanted to without us, the people asking a single question. They constantly come up with these imaginery taxes, remember when they charged you more for rates and taxes simply because you may have improved your property with YOUR money?!

Something has got to give here and I have a feeling that this e-tolls bull***** is going to bite these greedy swines in the ass because it shows us how much power we as the public have. We need to exercise our power more because we have a clown with not even a high school education running this country into the ground!
 
The only way I'll pay is if I am sent a court summons and they are literally about to take me to jail.

I'm a law abiding citizen, I pay my fair share towards SARS and complete my tax return as honestly as possible every year. I pay all my fines and my rates and taxes have never fallen behind for more than 30 days.

But this e-toll rubbish is just too much and I think I speak for most of us here in saying that if I knew that the money collected would actually be put to good use then I would be the first in line for an e-tag. We all know that 95% of the money raised by this scam will go towards lining the pockets of corrupt government officials.

I'm going off on a rant here I know, I love this country though and the people in it but the level of corruption we are witnessing is just sickening. Zuma trying to pass a secrecy bill which basically meant that politicians could steal all the money they wanted to without us, the people asking a single question. They constantly come up with these imaginery taxes, remember when they charged you more for rates and taxes simply because you may have improved your property with YOUR money?!

Something has got to give here and I have a feeling that this e-tolls bull***** is going to bite these greedy swines in the ass because it shows us how much power we as the public have. We need to exercise our power more because we have a clown with not even a high school education running this country into the ground!

most people would agree with you!

I'm just hoping the people stand together and refuse to pay - they can't take us all to court

If we win this battle, I'm sure govt will take note and respect us a bit more - next years elections in Gauteng will hopefully also shake the ANC to it's core
 
most people would agree with you!

I'm just hoping the people stand together and refuse to pay - they can't take us all to court

If we win this battle, I'm sure govt will take note and respect us a bit more - next years elections in Gauteng will hopefully also shake the ANC to it's core

Amen to that bro
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X