The Middle East Conflict Thread

semiautomatix

semiautomatix

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rwenzori said:
Well, it's historical fact, so I don't know why you bleat again.
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Historical fact according to extremist brain washing camps maybe. Not to the rest of the world, hence the support of Israel. Palestine is in the wrong and everyone knows it that it why no one is willing to get involved; sucks to be all alone in this world thanks to your terrorist ways :(
 
BBSA

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rwenzori said:
Well, it's historical fact, so I don't know why you bleat again.
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O please, how is "ethnic cleansing by the Zionists" a historical fact - it is propaganda.

Have Isreal ever said they want to wipe out the Palistinians? No, they did not!

It is cheap propaganda which will not help to solve the current conflict. Propaganda like this just encourage Hamas to continue firing rockets at Israeli citizens which is the root cause of the problem and palestinian deaths.

I actually became anti-palestinian because of propaganda like this.
 
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rwenzori

rwenzori

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timgaul said:
Well there plan was to repatriate, as such there is 8million Jews and 2.4Million Palestinians. So it looks like the UN was correct, thanks for pointing out that the land belongs to the majority, as such it will stay in Israeli hands. Glad we finally got your approval.
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It would be nice to debate this without getting silly, but c'est la vie here I suppose.

There are many sources on the net giving comparative population figures around 1948, most of which show about a third of the population being Jewish. That is the period we were discussing. "Repatriation" of European Jews is pure bull as a concept - prior to the events of WWII and the Soviet occupation of eastern Europe, probably a grand total of 10 would have wished to leave to go to Palestine. They had given up any rights to land in Palestine over many centuries.

Don't get so worked up - then we can discuss these issues! Hell, I am even conceding a certain right to exist for Israel based on what you say LOL!
 
semiautomatix

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rwenzori said:
It would be nice to debate this without getting silly, but c'est la vie here I suppose.

There are many sources on the net giving comparative population figures around 1948, most of which show about a third of the population being Jewish. That is the period we were discussing. "Repatriation" of European Jews is pure bull as a concept - prior to the events of WWII and the Soviet occupation of eastern Europe, probably a grand total of 10 would have wished to leave to go to Palestine. They had given up any rights to land in Palestine over many centuries.

Don't get so worked up - then we can discuss these issues! Hell, I am even conceding a certain right to exist for Israel based on what you say LOL!
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Well look, unfortunately the urgent need for a Jewish homeland became a priority after WWII and the Iron Curtain fell. Yes, the population only grew and grew due to repatriation over the decades; as such, we need to look at it in its modern context where the Jews outnumber the Palestinians 3-to-1.

Disregarding any historical events we do find ourselves in a position where 8 million Jews live in Israel/Palestine and they aren't going anywhere.

I was trying to find the figure again, but I think at the time of the Crusades only 200 Jewish families resided in the Holy Land :/
 
d0b33

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Israel is not going anywhere, they've received funding(military) and with it have laid down firm roots, that said Palestinians are still one of the most oppressed peoples on the planet today and Israel should be held responsible.
 
rwenzori

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BBSA said:
O please, how is "ethnic cleansing by the Zionists" a historical fact - it is propaganda.
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OK then , what words would you use to describe the forced removal of somewhere between 400,000 and 1 million Palestinians from their land that the Israelis/Zionists then took?
 
semiautomatix

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rwenzori said:
OK then , what words would you use to describe the forced removal of somewhere between 400,000 and 1 million Palestinians from their land that the Israelis/Zionists then took?
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Please explain this because I hardly believe it to be true. I can understand displacement due to war and certainly a degree of forced removals - but Israel has forcefully moved Jews from the West Bank and Gaza to Israel, as well :/
 
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rwenzori said:
Don't get so worked up - then we can discuss these issues! Hell, I am even conceding a certain right to exist for Israel based on what you say LOL!
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Sounds just like Hamarse when they realised that the foreign aid that they lived on would dry up when they were democratically elected - the world just didn't see fit to finance an Islamic terrorist organisation.
 
semiautomatix

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Aqua_lung said:
Israel is not going anywhere, they've received funding(military) and with it have laid down firm roots, that said Palestinians are still one of the most oppressed peoples on the planet today and Israel should be held responsible.
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When the Palestinians take responsibility for getting themselves into this mess; accept that the State of Israel exists and is not going anywhere; is willing to sit down and negotiate with Israel and not point blank refuse any compromise; and, cease all hostile activities within the sovereign State of Israel then maybe, just maybe, they will receive their own country.

Unfortunately Palestine is hardly blameless and needs to accept responsibility for the part they played in this tragedy.
 
semiautomatix

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Extremists and terrorists should either be killed or locked away for a long, long time. Palestinians are not the enemy here; but these militant crazies have made every Jew in the Holy Land an enemy - it hardly seems fair, now does it?
 
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timgaul said:
Extremists and terrorists should either be killed or locked away for a long, long time. Palestinians are not the enemy here; but these militant crazies have made every Jew in the Holy Land an enemy - it hardly seems fair, now does it?
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"these militant crazies" = Hamarse (and a good few others of the same ideology)
 
rwenzori

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I dont agree with this whole war, but just something I noticed: The IDF targets Hamas militants but there also are the inevitable civilian casualties, Hamas targets everyone and anyone including ordinary Israeli citizens. Just two different logics. Although imo there must be a better way to solve this situation.
 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/01/saudi-arabia-hamas-gaza

Saudi Arabia yesterday blamed Hamas for Israel's continuing offensive in the Gaza Strip and urged it to resolve bitter differences with the western-backed Palestinian Authority - even as divisions deepened with a new charge of treachery.
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Guess they know something more about the situation than us living in africa

i like how cosatu and desmond tutu feel they are more qualified to comment on the situation than the arab league
 
semiautomatix

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rwenzori said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Exodus_1949_to_1956

I'll refrain from quoting, so as not to be too inflammatory to the Doubting Frankie types LOL!
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I continue to stand by what I said: most of these were displacements due to war, a war that was started by Palestine and its allies, and not due to policies of forced removal.

During the 1949–1956 Palestinian exodus forced removals do seem to have occurred, but during that time many Jews fled from the Arab controlled territories to Israel.

As such Israel are hardly the "evil" barbarians you would have them be. They were merely defending a piece of land that they had longed for with any means necessary. This might never have occurred had the Arabs not attacked Israel in the first place.

Here's something I find ironic:

First Phase of the Exodus, December 1947 - March 1948

On the other hand, Simha Flapan points out a pattern in which terrorist attacks by Irgun and Lehi resulted in Palestinian Arab retaliations and then 'the Haganah - while always condemning the actions of Irgun and Lehi - joined in with an inflaming counter-retaliation'. The Zionist groups of Irgun and Lehi reverted to their 1937-1939 strategy of indiscriminate attacks by placing bombs and throwing grenades into crowded places such as bus stops, shopping centres and markets. Their attacks on British forces reduced British troops' ability and willingness to protect Jewish traffic.
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This reminds me of the exact same thing Hamas is doing now. When the Jews were in the minority they were the ones oppressed by the Palestinian Arabs.
 
semiautomatix

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rwenzori

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timgaul said:
A massacre that took place during the Arab-Israeli war; a war started by who?

You can't indiscriminately attack a country and not expect reprisals! (And I have already stated that I feel Lehi was a bit like a Jewish Hamas).
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Massacres such as that are war crimes and their perpetrators should be tried. There are many Western precedents.
 
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