The Middle East Conflict Thread

[d0b33]

A massacre that took place during the Arab-Israeli war; a war started by who?

You can't indiscriminately attack a country and not expect reprisals! (And I have already stated that I feel Lehi was a bit like a Jewish Hamas).

Deir Yassin was different from the village of al-Qastal that had recently been attacked by the Haganah, in that it did not participate directly in the conflict. The villagers reportedly wanted to remain neutral in the war and they had repeatedly resisted help and alliances with the Palestinian irregulars. Instead they had made a pact with Haganah to not help the irregulars as long as they were not the target of military operations.[11]

The inhabitants had even remained cooperative while the Haganah took the strategic Sharafa ridge between Deir Yassin and the nearby ALA base Ein Karem. Haganah intelligence confirmed after the village had been captured that it in fact had stayed "faithful allies of the western Jerusalem sector".[12]

Yoma Ben-Sasson, Haganah commander in Givat Shaul, later recalled that "there was not even one incident between Deir Yassin and the Jews".

So the massacre of innocent people is justified?... I see.

 

[rwenzori]

I continue to stand by what I said: most of these were displacements due to war, a war that was started by Palestine and its allies, and not due to policies of forced removal.

Perhaps a bit of both:

What the new material
shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had
previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape.
In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state
defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational
orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers,
expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

"At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued
by the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels
to remove children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on
the one hand, the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist
side, but on the other hand it also proves that many of those who left
the villages did so with the encouragement of the Palestinian leadership
itself."

http://www.16beavergroup.org/mtarchive/archives/000729.php

But then again, trying to get the "children, women and the elderly" to leave to avoid massacre is quite humanitarian.

 

[marine1]

Rwenzori, for someone who does not support any of the groups there, you sure have a one sided view.

 

[rwenzori]

So the massacre of innocent people is justified?... I see.

On massacres:

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were
perpetrated in 1948?

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others
the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary
killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A
woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases
such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a
column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything
that moved.

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod
(250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no
unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes
were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which
nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the
north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram
[in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab
al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was
a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or
next to a well in an orderly fashion.

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who
took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they
received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the
population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished
for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up
for the officers who did the massacres."

http://www.16beavergroup.org/mtarchive/archives/000729.php

 

[semiautomatix]

Not forgetting massacres like...
The Deir Yassin massacre

Massacres such as that are war crimes and their perpetrators should be tried. There are many Western precedents.

The same could be said about Hamas or the PLO. Munich, 1972, 11 athletes massacred by Palestinian extremists. This wasn't even during a war!

The bodies of the five Palestinians — Afif, Nazzal, Chic Thaa, Hamid and Jawad — killed during the Fürstenfeldbruck gun battle were delivered to Libya, where they received heroes’ funerals and were buried with full military honors.

There were always going to be extremists on both sides. Please explain how these militant extremists were given a heroes' burial?

Don't for one moment think that Palestine has the monopoly on victims.

 

[rwenzori]

Rwenzori, for someone who does not support any of the groups there, you sure have a one sided view.

I'm just trying to counter the deluge of misinformation and hatred pouring forth here. The Zionists/Israelis are just as culpable on all fronts as your beloved "pallies".

 

[semiautomatix]

Perhaps a bit of both:



http://www.16beavergroup.org/mtarchive/archives/000729.php

But then again, trying to get the "children, women and the elderly" to leave to avoid massacre is quite humanitarian.

It was a war, as such displacement (and often voluntary) occurs. Do you not think the same thing happened across Europe during the whole of the 1940s?

 

[Frankie]

On massacres:

More on massacres:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/02/iraq.suicide.bombing/index.html

 

[semiautomatix]

So the massacre of innocent people is justified?... I see.

According to Libya and other Arab nations in 1972, yes it it justified. Its a two way street, gentlemen.

 

[Frankie]

It was a war, as such displacement (and often voluntary) occurs. Do you not think the same thing happened across Europe during the whole of the 1940s?

I wonder how far back in history the extremists are prepared to go in their feeble attempts to condone the terrorist acts of today by the vile ideology?

 

[semiautomatix]

I wonder how far back in history the extremists are prepared to go in their feeble attempts to condone the terrorist acts by the vile ideology?

Honestly, 6 million Jews killed and millions displaced during the 1940s; the Palestinians hardly know suffering and displacement.

 

[rwenzori]

It was a war, as such displacement (and often voluntary) occurs.

I think that is naive. I believe there was a deliberate policy by the Israelis to remove Palestinians from the land. It stands to reason - otherwise they would be voted out rather soon! ( Unless they did the second-class citizen / subhuman bit we have seen elsewhere ). They also refused the right of return to those forced out - that in particular gives the lie to your argument.

 

[rwenzori]

According to Libya and other Arab nations in 1972, yes it it justified. Its a two way street, gentlemen.

No it isn't. Two moral wrongs don't make a moral right.

 

[rwenzori]

I wonder how far back in history the extremists are prepared to go in their feeble attempts to condone the terrorist acts of today by the vile ideology?

Please try to stay with the debate and refrain from petty insults.

No-one is condoning violent acts. We are just pointing out that your gabbas are just as bad, if not worse.

 

[d0b33]

Please explain how these militant extremists were given a heroes' burial?

You say Lehi are the Jewish Hamas, so why do they have a museum/shrine dedicated to them in Israel?

 

[Sackboy]

I think that is naive. I believe there was a deliberate policy by the Israelis to remove Palestinians from the land. It stands to reason - otherwise they would be voted out rather soon! ( Unless they did the second-class citizen / subhuman bit we have seen elsewhere ). They also refused the right of return to those forced out - that in particular gives the lie to your argument.

You may believe it, but there are Israeli Arabs who live fairly peacefully at this very moment. They have the same rights as any other citizen. If their intention was to remove Arabs, then why are they still there.

 

[Frankie]

Please try to stay with the debate and refrain from petty insults.

No-one is condoning violent acts. We are just pointing out that your gabbas are just as bad, if not worse.

Just had to add that last bit to round off the propaganda?

Again - do you have references to Israel calling for the destruction of others, like we see from Hamarse and others of the same ideology?

 

[rwenzori]

You may believe it, but there are Israeli Arabs who live fairly peacefully at this very moment. They have the same rights as any other citizen. If their intention was to remove Arabs, then why are they still there.

If they had got rid of ALL of them, their actual intentions would have been obvious and they would have been condemned - they need some to make it look kosher ( LOL! ) so that they can make points like yours. Think token-black.

 

[Frankie]

No it isn't. Two moral wrongs don't make a moral right.

It is not immoral to pursue radical terrorists hell-bent on world domination of their ideology by violent means.

 

[Vrotappel]

I wonder how far back in history the extremists are prepared to go in their feeble attempts to condone the terrorist acts of today by the vile ideology?

Most probably further back than the Crusades.

They need to accept that Israel is here to stay. There cannot be peace without that acceptance.