The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Frankie]

Ok. Lots of people in the West DO have an issue with this, even people who
are neutral in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Islam gets used a lot as a pretext by the militants, insurgents and terrorists
around the world - from 911/UK to Algeria to India/Kashmir to this conflict.
No other religion gets used as much and no other ideology gets used as much in recent years. There are many clerics who advocate violence towards enemies of the followers of Islam however, we do not see any significant response from
peace-loving Islamic clerics. Perhaps they are just bad at PR or maybe this does not get reported but if that's the case, could any of you guys politely
show us some recent condemnation of the abuse of Islam by the militants who kill claiming to kill in Allah's name. Please, politely do show it.

That is a key issue here. Many people are becoming tired of the noise many Islamists produce and the threats and fatwahs. On the other hand many people claim that Islam is a religion of peace. By those statements, there should hopefully be more condemnation and maybe peaceful guidance to
divert the attention of easily led militant youths away from what many are doing now.

So yes, please show some examples of condemnation from Islamic Clerics or leaders.

I'm asking this politely and with no emotion. I can understand marine1's feelings at seeing his people being attacked, however I'm not Jewish so please enlighten us on how the various communities are responding to this abuse of Islam and the murder which gets perpetrated in this abuse.

Do you think that the fear of being labelled an apostate has anything to do with it?

 

[rwenzori]

Again - do you have references to Israel calling for the destruction of others,

I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for, but surely you cannot claim that Israel has never "destroyed" anything or anyone Palestinian?

 

[semiautomatix]

No it isn't. Two moral wrongs don't make a moral right.

I don't believe it, I was just being ironic. However, it is therefore pointless bringing up a massacre by one side in 1948 and ignoring a massacre by the other side in 1972, is it not?

Neither side is blameless.

 

[semiautomatix]

You say Lehi are the Jewish Hamas, so why do they have a museum/shrine dedicated to them in Israel?

Why were Hamas elected in Palestine? Why were terrorists given a heroes' burial? We can ask questions all day, but you need to start acknowledging Palestine/PLO/Fatah/Hamas's hand in this whole thing.

 

[semiautomatix]

I think that is naive. I believe there was a deliberate policy by the Israelis to remove Palestinians from the land. It stands to reason - otherwise they would be voted out rather soon! ( Unless they did the second-class citizen / subhuman bit we have seen elsewhere ). They also refused the right of return to those forced out - that in particular gives the lie to your argument.

I never stated there wasn't forced removals. But not to the degree you think. Furthermore, I have already stated that Israeli forcefully removed Jews, as well.

 

[Frankie]

I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for, but surely you cannot claim that Israel has never "destroyed" anything or anyone Palestinian?

Cant argue with that - the 6 day war comes to mind - yes they have had their successes in response to neighbouring Arab aggression, and their pursuit of terrorists.

 

[semiautomatix]

If they had got rid of ALL of them, their actual intentions would have been obvious and they would have been condemned - they need some to make it look kosher ( LOL! ) so that they can make points like yours. Think token-black.

No. All Israel ever wanted was a country of their own and to be left in peace. But the Arab nations couldn't let that happen, and as a result their own people are suffering now. Its this air of indignity and unwillingness that is causing all this, Palestinians are hardly the victims they would portray themselves as being.

Even their age old ally Saudi Arabia has stated that they have (or rather Hamas has) brought this upon themselves.

 

[semiautomatix]

Cant argue with that - the 6 day war comes to mind - yes they have had their successes in response to neighbouring Arab aggression, and their pursuit of terrorists.

Well its really been a case of repelling invaders, has it not? War is war and just like the Germans have no case to complain about Berlin being obliterated in 1943-1945 neither do the Arab nations have a case to complain about the destruction.

i.e. Don't start what you can't finish!

 

[rwenzori]

Neither side is blameless.

Exactly.

 

[rwenzori]

No. All Israel ever wanted was a country of their own and to be left in peace.

I don't buy that. They have consistently also looked to expand their territory. If they just want to be left in peace, they would abide by the calls to withdraw from the occupied territories, and do so in a humanitarian manner, at the very least.

 

[BBSA]

Exactly.

So, how do we move forward from here? Hamas does not want peace, I do not see another solution than to eliminate Hamas and to start talk to Palestinians who do want a peaceful solution.

 

[d0b33]

I don't believe it, I was just being ironic. However, it is therefore pointless bringing up a massacre by one side in 1948 and ignoring a massacre by the other side in 1972, is it not?

With regards to massacres related to the 1948 war, yes Arabs have committed a few...
wiki
But Israel are responsible for most(22) Arabs(5).

 

[Sackboy]

I don't buy that. They have consistently also looked to expand their territory. If they just want to be left in peace, they would abide by the calls to withdraw from the occupied territories, and do so in a humanitarian manner, at the very least.

You forget that the 'occupied' territory was gained by war and represented strategic positions (Golan). It would not be sensible for the Israelis to allow just any withdrawal without dealing with that.

 

[rwenzori]

So, how do we move forward from here? Hamas does not want peace, I do not see another solution than to eliminate Hamas and to start talk to Palestinians who do want a peaceful solution.

Hell, if there were any easy answers, one would have to join the UN and try them! I see that strange Sarkozy fellow is going to have a try.

What I would say is:

- You will never "eliminate" a group like Hamas by violent means. They exist and were voted in because of their militancy, because the Palestinians, esp. in Gaza, feel very oppressed and see militancy as their only option. For each you "eliminate" you will create two more.

- Israel must be seen to be serious and genuine about trying for peace. They must withdraw from the occupied territories and do so in such a way that they don't leave behind a wasteland, economically and socially, as they have done with Gaza.

- Both sides must get to the stage of being willing to make serious compromises, as had to happen here in SA ( for better or worserer! ).

I doubt there is any prospect of peace though. Both sides have broken agreements, initiated belligerencies, etc, so that the possibility of trust is probably non-existent. I do think that violence begets violence and that rockets and planes and bombs and suicide bombers and whatever else will NEVER lead to peace.

 

[Sackboy]

Hell, if there were any easy answers, one would have to join the UN and try them! I see that strange Sarkozy fellow is going to have a try.

What I would say is:

- You will never "eliminate" a group like Hamas by violent means. They exist and were voted in because of their militancy, because the Palestinians, esp. in Gaza, feel very oppressed and see militancy as their only option. For each you "eliminate" you will create two more.

- Israel must be seen to be serious and genuine about trying for peace. They must withdraw from the occupied territories and do so in such a way that they don't leave behind a wasteland, economically and socially, as they have done with Gaza.

- Both sides must get to the stage of being willing to make serious compromises, as had to happen here in SA ( for better or worserer! ).

I doubt there is any prospect of peace though. Both sides have broken agreements, initiated belligerencies, etc, so that the possibility of trust is probably non-existent. I do think that violence begets violence and that rockets and planes and bombs and suicide bombers and whatever else will NEVER lead to peace.

Which territories?

 

[semiautomatix]

With regards to massacres related to the 1948 war, yes Arabs have committed a few...
wiki
But Israel are responsible for most(22) Arabs(5).

Dude, this isn't a pissing contest.

 

[rwenzori]

Which territories?

Anything occupied in and after the 6-day war would be a start.

 

[LazyLion]

Anything occupied in and after the 6-day war would be a start.

Nah, I think Israel should keep them. They took them for strategic advantage from the Pallies and the Arabs who had threatened to wipe them out.

It is a fitting punishment for those who would practice aggression and hatred.

Besides that land is too valuable to Israel militarily and economically.

Let the Arab countries welcome their fellow Muslims in with open arms and settle them in their own countries!

Ooops, I forgot they don't want them either. Wonder why? maybe cos they are trouble-makers?

 

[rwenzori]

Nah, I think Israel should keep them. They took them for strategic advantage from the Pallies and the Arabs who had threatened to wipe them out.

It is a fitting punishment for those who would practice aggression and hatred.

Besides that land is too valuable to Israel militarily and economically.

Let the Arab countries welcome their fellow Muslims in with open arms and settle them in their own countries!

Ooops, I forgot they don't want them either. Wonder why? maybe cos they are trouble-makers?

Try to keep up with the discussion - we were discussing the possibilities of making some kind of peace and had got past the "kill the f*ckers" stage - thanks.

 

[Sackboy]

The US never left South Korea, Japan, Germany (for a long time) etc. so a precedent has been set.

What about Jews living in the Arab world after the Six Day War?

Immediately after Israel's victory, Jews living in the Arab world faced persecution and expulsion. According to historian Michael B. Oren, mobs attacked Jewish neighborhoods in Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Morocco, burning synagogues and assaulting residents. A pogrom in Tripoli, Libya, left 18 Jews dead and 25 injured; the survivors were herded into detention centers. Of Egypt's 4,000 Jews, 800 were arrested, including the chief rabbis of both Cairo and Alexandria, and their property sequestered by the government. The ancient communities of Damascus and Baghdad were placed under house arrest, their leaders imprisoned and fined. A total of 7,000 Jews were expelled, many with merely a satchel.[163]

wiki


Sinai Peninsula
Gaza Strip
the West Bank
East Jerusalem
Golan Heights.
So which ones are still occupied then?