The Middle East Conflict Thread

AvOk

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1947: Legal partition mandated by UN to land lost in WWI. Land lost by the Ottoman Empire in a war where they were the aggressors; Germany, Austro-Hungaria and allies also lose land.
1949-1967: Israel was suddenly and deliberately attacked by Palestine and its allies. The resultant land loss was due to the Arabs losing a war they began (much like German land losses in WWI and WWII).
1967: Egypt and Jordan once again forced Israel's hand by instigating a naval blockade against all Israeli ships in a prelude to war. Once again the Arab nations lose a war they began, as such all Palestinian land is ceded to the State of Israel.
2000: Israel kindly returns much land to the Palestinians despite their aggressive past behaviour.

So we can see, had the Ottoman Empire not gone to war against the Allies; had Palestine and its allies not started a war against Israel; had Jordan and Egypt not created a war with Israel, then a Palestinian controlled state might still exist. They made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

What a pathetic example, so because a war/wars were started, Palestinians have lost almost 80% of their freedom! Some of these wars were started by Iraq, Jordan, Syria etc. for their own personal gain, so why are the Palestinians suffering?

You forgot what led to this! What about pre 1947?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

Hamas is a terrorist org., no denying it, but Israel is to blame for its strong arm tactics! Most of these posts are looking to blame Hamas, but offer no solutions!
 

BBSA

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Seeing as you tout frequently the legality of the UN resolution forming the state of Israel, why do you then not back the UN resolutions calling for Israel to pull out of the occupied territories and stating that territory gained by war is gained illegally?

Not really, but even if true, then don't complain about your Israelis being rocketed.

.... and don't complain if it does not work for the palistanians.
 

BBSA

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What a pathetic example, so because a war/wars were started, Palestinians have lost almost 80% of their freedom! Some of these wars were started by Iraq, Jordan, Syria etc. for their own personal gain, so why are the Palestinians suffering?

You forgot what led to this! What about pre 1947?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

Did you read the first line of the article "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed."

Hamas is a terrorist org., no denying it, but Israel is to blame for its strong arm tactics! Most of these posts are looking to blame Hamas, but offer no solutions!

We have provide solutions on many occasions.
 

rwenzori

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Yes treating them like that adds fuel to the fire, but its not the primary reason. Perhaps you should go read up on the whole jerusalem issue. It's a religious land issue.

Lol, i'm sure Rwenzori is goign to love me saying that.

/me gives rwenzori a podium, and awaits the speech. :D :p

/me sits on the bog, responding ;

Jerusalem is a big issue. I'm not sure they are going to get past that one. But it is a very small part of the land taken from the Palestinians.

C'mon, you're a good christian. Don't you think you should stand up against human rights abuses on both sides ( not just one ) - love your neighbour and all that?

Here's a bit on Palestinian health problems in Gaza:

A study carried out by Johns Hopkins University (U.S.) and Al-Quds University (in Jerusalem) for CARE International in late 2002 revealed very high levels of dietary deficiency among the Palestinian population. The study found that 17.5% of children aged 6–59 months suffered from chronic malnutrition. 53% of women of reproductive age and 44% of children were found to be anemic. In the aftermath of the Israeli withdrawal of August and September 2005, the healthcare system in Gaza continues to face severe challenges.[59] After the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the subsequent Israeli declaration of Gaza Strip as a "hostile entity", the health conditions in Gaza Strip faces new challenges exacerbated by the intensified Israeli closure. The WHO expressed its concerns about the consequences of the Palestinian internal political fragmentation; the socioeconomic decline; military actions; and the physical, psychological and economic isolation on the health of the population in Gaza.[60]

Gazans requiring medical care in Israeli hospitals have to apply for a medical permit. In 2007, Israel granted 7176 permits and denied 1627. Two women who had received permits were arrested at the crossing when it was found they had plans to blow themselves up in the Israeli hospital.

Suffer the little children to come unto me. Or does the last sentence justify the suffering of all the others?
 

rwenzori

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Did you read the first line of the article "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed."



We have provide solutions on many occasions.

So? Many articles on the subject are disputed, naturally and obviously. The only alternatives seem to be propaganda sites on both sides.

Yes - the "nuke the bastards" option in one format or another, repeated ad nauseam on this forum, and really childishly so to boot.
 

d0b33

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Did you read the first line of the article "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed."

Duh... it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you'll always have people flagging it if it does not fit their "view".
 

AvOk

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Did you read the first line of the article "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed."



We have provide solutions on many occasions.

Did you click on the link? Did YOU read the talk page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

Its a sensitive issue, obviously, like this thread people will have an opinion.

Bash it all you want, I was merely referring to pre 1947, those are facts! But you fail to point out what the problem is with the timeline?
 
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BBSA

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Duh... it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you'll always have people flagging it if it does not fit their "view".

Not correct, many Israeli-Palestinian articles are undisputed but if it warns about Neutrality then you must be careful to take it as the truth.
 

BBSA

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aperio

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How the modern state of Israel came into being

Whenever a discussion about the Middle East comes up, be it last year's invasion by Israel of Lebanon, the right of Israel to exist, suicide attacks on Israel, or Israeli attacks on Gaza, it is quite clear that many people are under the impression that the modern state of Israel:

1. Has been in existence for thousands of years, populated by mainly Jews and
2. Has a God-given right to exist and expand their borders as they wish.

The article below sheds some light on these popular misconceptions.

At the beginning of the twentieth century, the population of Palestine consisted substantially of Muslim and Christian Arabs, plus around 20,000 Jews. Until 1948, Palestine was a British mandated territory and British policy on the territory was informed by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, whereby Palestine would be regarded as a homeland for the Jews, subject to the rights of the Arabs, but would not necessarily be an independent state. By 1939, Britain was moving away from this position, and a white Paper recommended that an Arab state of Palestine be created.

In order to force Britain's hand and ensure a favourable outcome, the Jews commenced a program of terrorism, with the Stern Gang as the main participant. In 1946, the British headquarters in the King David Hotel were blown up. By February 1947, the number of British casualties in Palestine has risen sharply and Britain called on the UN to solve the Palestinian problem.

At this point, the United States reached agreement with USSR that Palestine was to be divided. In November 1947, a UN Special Committee on Palestine presented a report to the General Assembly, with a majority advocating division, but a minority advocating a unitary state based on democracy. Intense pressure by USA and USSR was necessary to gain the necessary two thirds majority vote for partition.

At first, the international solution was for the Palestinians to receive the major portion of the divided territory, but the Jews gradually achieved concessions, until a United Nations "Green Line" was drawn, dividing the territory approximately into two, by means of four sectors which touched at one point, so that a Jew or Palestinian need not cross the other's territory in order to move from one of his two sectors to the other.

Some publications that may provide more information include:

* A history of modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (2004) by Professor Ilan Pappe (University of Haifa, Israel);
* The History of Israel (1998) by Professor Arnold Blumberg;
* Bitter Harvest: A Modern History of Palestine (1989), by Sami Hadawi (official land valuer during the British Mandate)
 

Claymore

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There is one common denominator here:
Hamarse, Iran, Bali bombing, London 7/7, Glasgow Airport, Mumbai, Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri, Abu Qatada, Abu Bakar Ba'asyir, 9/11 WTC, .....

I'd just like to point out that it's rather disingenuous to cherry-pick a selection of terrorist acts committed by Muslims, and then point out that they share a common factor in that they were committed by Muslims!

Don't forget that there have been many other terrorist acts over the last few decades committed by non-Muslims too, in many parts of the world; even ones by Americans (Oklahoma City, for example).
 

Sackboy

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Or does the last sentence justify the suffering of all the others?
It depends if they support what Hamas is doing in their name. They voted for it, knowing they were going to have trouble with Israel. They live near where rockets are made or fired. So yes, in many cases they have to accept some suffering.
 

Claymore

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:confused: Who said Israel would made a difference.

You did.

I said:
"they were managing just fine without Israel."

You said:
"Did they, does the holocaust ring a bell?"

The obvious implication is that Israel made the difference.
 

semiautomatix

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What a pathetic example, so because a war/wars were started, Palestinians have lost almost 80% of their freedom! Some of these wars were started by Iraq, Jordan, Syria etc. for their own personal gain, so why are the Palestinians suffering?

You forgot what led to this! What about pre 1947?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

Hamas is a terrorist org., no denying it, but Israel is to blame for its strong arm tactics! Most of these posts are looking to blame Hamas, but offer no solutions!

The Palestinians started the war in 1948; lost control to Egypt and Jordan (again, where are your utterances about this little fact?), who subsequently lost control to Israel. So yes, Palestine started a war that lost them their country. Besides, if you want to ally yourself with Jordan, Syria, Iraq or Egypt then that's your decision and you need to live with the consequences. Ergo, this is all their own fault.

As for pre-1947 you can thank their Turkish overlords for losing their country in 1918. Why aren't you complaining about that?

They had a country in 1948, which due to their ruthless ambition and stubbornness they lost. So pre-1947 is not a focal point. Israel didn't have a country pre-1947 either, just thought I'd let you know.
 

d0b33

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I'd just like to point out that it's rather disingenuous to cherry-pick a selection of terrorist acts committed by Muslims, and then point out that they share a common factor in that they were committed by Muslims!

Exactly...

Tell me frankie do the Tamil suicide bombers share this ideology? they are not Muslims.
 

semiautomatix

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Seeing as you tout frequently the legality of the UN resolution forming the state of Israel, why do you then not back the UN resolutions calling for Israel to pull out of the occupied territories and stating that territory gained by war is gained illegally?

Not really, but even if true, then don't complain about your Israelis being rocketed.

Actually almost all of those resolutions are recommendations (e.g. "The UN strongly urges") and as such Israel are not in breach of any resolution. If the UN felt that they were in breach of as many resolutions as you seem to think the UN would have invoked Chapter VII, which they have not done.
 

BBSA

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You did.

I said:
"they were managing just fine without Israel."

You said:
"Did they, does the holocaust ring a bell?"

The obvious implication is that Israel made the difference.

Not at all, I was pointing out that the Jews was not doing well at all at the time after you said they were managing just fine. 6 Million killed is not "managing just fine" in my book but you may have a different perspective.
 

LazyLion

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CNN...

Israeli forces push deeper into Gaza

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israeli troops gained control of the eastern section of northern Gaza Sunday, less than 24 hours after launching a ground incursion into the Palestinian territory, according to Palestinian security sources.
Smoke fills the sky during clashes between Israeli and Palestinian forces at the border of Gaza City on Sunday.

At least eight Palestinians were killed in northern Gaza Sunday, including two militants, Palestinian medical sources said.

Heavy battles between Israeli soldiers and Hamas fighters were happening east of the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza, the sources said.

Dozens of Hamas fighters were "hit" in the fighting, according to an Israel Defense Forces statement released Sunday, although it did not say how many were killed.

Israeli missiles targeted 45 Hamas locations overnight, including the Hamas intelligence headquarters, the IDF said. It also said soldiers engaged Hamas fighters in several firefights during the first hours of the ground incursion into Gaza.

At least 30 rockets were launched from Gaza into southern Israel Sunday morning, although no injuries have been reported, the IDF said.

Blasts of heavy machine-gun fire and explosions from air strikes have filled the air in Gaza since Israel rolled thousands of troops into the Palestinian territory.

Israel's ground assault followed a week long flurry of air strikes. Israel has said the attacks are in response to recent rocket attacks from Hamas militants in Gaza.

"We haven't articulated regime change as the goal of this operation. Our goal is to protect our people," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said.

Regev said Gaza's civilian population was not Israel's enemy.

"In many ways, they are victims like us. Both the civilian population of southern Israel and the civilian population of the Gaza Strip have been victims of this terrible, extremist Hamas regime," Regev said.

Not long after Israel's ground incursion began, Hamas vowed to "fight until the last breath" and warned Israel that "Gaza will be your cemetery."

"We will not abandon the battlefield, and we will stay on the thorny course, and we will fight until the last breath," Hamas chief spokesman Ismail Radwan said in a statement on Palestinian network Al-Aqsa.

According to the Israeli military, 30 soldiers have been wounded during the Jewish state's incursion into Gaza. Two of the soldiers reportedly have serious injuries.

The incursion began just hours after the European Union announced that a delegation is heading to the Middle East to meet with regional leaders and broker a cease-fire.

At least those "Hamas heroes" (read Terrorist murderers) have vowed to fight to the death. We should be rid of them for good pretty soon. :) Then peace can prevail.
 
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rwenzori

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Actually almost all of those resolutions are recommendations (e.g. "The UN strongly urges") and as such Israel are not in breach of any resolution. If the UN felt that they were in breach of as many resolutions as you seem to think the UN would have invoked Chapter VII, which they have not done.

Oh OK then - we can both cherry pick which ones we like then. 181 is trash, as I have said. ;) They ARE in breach, and you are arguing petty semantics.

Chapter VII. In this conflict, the UN would not in any way be able to afford to send in enough neutral troops to guarantee the peace - be practical. The massive US influence would also prevent it. So, not a real option in the real world.
 
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