The Middle East Conflict Thread

[LazyLion]

Netanyahu reminds me of filth like Botha, Magnus Malan, Jimmy Kruger, Bin Laden and Hitler.

Racists, warmongers and bigots the lot of them.

I have no time for someone of his ilk -

July 2006, Benjamin Netanyahu, former members of Irgun and other Israelis, attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the King David Hotel bombing. In 1946, 91 people were killed and 46 were injured when the Zionist militant group Irgun bombed the headquarters of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine

Celebrators of death and terrorism can all rot in hell. ( I don't know if jews believe in hell ).

Now you know exactly how we feel about Hamas. Just the same. so we are not so different after all.

 

[daveza]

Now you know exactly how we feel about Hamas. Just the same. so we are not so different after all.

I never said I didn't feel the same way about hamas.

But I do expect better from Israel.

 

[JHatman]

Just watched the BBC news here. The reporter said that Hamas want to be perceived to be the winners no matter how many of their own civilians die in the process, and there's no sign yet they'll give in.

Seems this isn't nearly over not by a long shot. Just hope that Israel will be less haphazard in their bombing. They are allowing aid in and daily cease fires so thats a good thing

 

[LazyLion]

I never said I didn't feel the same way about hamas.

But I do expect better from Israel.

agreed.

 

[Xarog]

The arguments in this thread just seem to go around in circles.

Probably because you're unwilling to adress the heart of the issue.

The way i see it is that hamas fired the first rockets that sparked this little war and so israel will only stop fighting once it has or is percieved to have won.

As I have claimed before, Hamas fired rockets in response to an Israeli raid which killed members of Hamas. Of course, Israel claims that it was targetting a tunnel that was meant to enter Israel, but Israel hardly has a proven track-record for telling the truth.

Hamas knows this and will keep going, no matter how many of its citizens die, in order for them to be percieved the winners. This is not the first, and will not be the last time that this has happened.

This is also false. The palestinians have been occupied by a foreign power for the last 60 years, the last 40 of which have been under Israel's control.

I've already point out here : http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2434430&postcount=2227
And here : http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2434433&postcount=2229

Why any ceasefire by Hamas is utterly pointless. There has not been a SINGLE geniune peace offer made by Israel, EVER. And that's because Israel ultimately wants Erets Yisrael to itself.

Israel probably could be a bit more careful when it fights but as it is retaliating in this case it is under no obligation to do so.

Actually the Palestinians are reacting to 40 years of Israeli occupation. Just like the ANC eventually started reacting violently to Apartheid.

Hamas on the other hand knew israel would invade if the rocket fire did not stop so they have to be held responsible for the casualties that occur because of their actions.

And Israel knew that Hamas would not stop firing rockets while they were not offered a viable peace deal. Thus by your rationale, Israel is to blame.

And even if Israels image is damaged because of this war, I dont think they even care. As long as they have the support of the US they are happy.

I wouldn't count on that support too much longer if I was Israel.

 

[daveza]

And even if Israels image is damaged because of this war, I dont think they even care.

Gerorge Bernard Shaw once said " Indifference is the essence of inhumanity. "

As long as they have the support of the US they are happy.

Saddam Hussein once had the support of the US and we know how that ended. The day may come when even the US can no longer justify its support.

Condoleezza Rice is about to sail into the sunset and Clinton is not a republican puppet..

 

[LazyLion]

Probably because you're unwilling to adress the heart of the issue.

No, it really is going around in circles... I have said that several times now. I have seen the same core issues arise and the same arguments are raised several times over since this thread began. In fact I find myself going back to the same links and posting them over again as authority. You guys are just re-hashing the arguments now. Seriously.

 

[Xarog]

Condoleezza Rice is about to sail into the sunset and Clinton is not a republican puppet..

She is an AIPAC puppet though. And Obama barely stopped short of grovelling before them himself.

No, it really is going around in circles... I have said that several times now. I have seen the same core issues arise and the same arguments are raised several times over since this thread began. In fact I find myself going back to the same links and posting them over again as authority. You guys are just re-hashing the arguments now. Seriously.

By all means, post links to posts which actually even bother to refute anything that I have claimed in this thread. I don't have time to read 3000+ posts.

I posted a comprehensive explanation of exactly what was happening in the region and WHY it was happening, and it was almost entirely ignored. In the several times that I have reposted the links, no one has even bothered to challenge it. You complain that people are going around in circles, but that's BECAUSE the root causes are being ignored. Most of the posters here are focusing on talking points, and acting like history started 3 weeks ago.

The region as at least a 130 year old history, and unless you put all of it in context, you're not really going to understand what is going on or why it is happening, and your reasoning is quite likely to miss the mark.

 

[CyraxHB]

Probably because you're unwilling to adress the heart of the issue.

We all have different ideas of what the "heart of the issue" is.

As I have claimed before, Hamas fired rockets in response to an Israeli raid which killed members of Hamas. Of course, Israel claims that it was targetting a tunnel that was meant to enter Israel, but Israel hardly has a proven track-record for telling the truth.

Hamas has tunnels under the border to Egypt so why is it so hard to believe they want them to israel too? Also, hamas doesnt have a great track record for telling the truth either.

This is also false. The palestinians have been occupied by a foreign power for the last 60 years, the last 40 of which have been under Israel's control.

That may be true but the Israelis are there now and arent going anywhere. Generations of them have been born there and see it as there home. Do you then think all whites should be kicked out of South Africa because we did not originate from here?

Why any ceasefire by Hamas is utterly pointless. There has not been a SINGLE geniune peace offer made by Israel, EVER. And that's because Israel ultimately wants Erets Yisrael to itself.

There is no peace because hamas keeps attacking israel causing them to attack palestine and the vicious circle keeps going. Remember hamas declared the most recent ceasefire over.

I wouldn't count on that support too much longer if I was Israel.

Obama has already declared his support for israels right to defend itself from hamas rockets. Israel will never lose US support, no matter who the US president is.

 

[LazyLion]

By all means, post links to posts which actually even bother to refute anything that I have claimed in this thread. I don't have time to read 3000+ posts.

Oh, sorry... I didn't realize we were dealing with an infallible expert. Sorry we are all so wrong and pointless. Well done on your superior intellect.

Actually, why don't you just go back and read the thread instead of asking us to repost our refutations.

and try a little bit of humility sometime... it doesn't hurt.

 

[JHatman]

I just find it amusing how you guys jump up and down claiming how it's immoral to target civilians, and then bend over backwards to justify it when someone from Israel supports the idea of doing exactly the same.

How many Hamas rockets have landed on Israeli terrorist targets in the last few years? If someone knowingly has these combatant weapons on his premises, or fires weapons from within the premises, then he and all its occupants are no longer civilians and classed as enemy combatants.

Its the same rule of engagement the US military uses. Its why you often see pictures on CNN of entire Iraqi or Afghan households lying dead in their living room, because some stupid camel herder decided to shoot at US troops from his living room window while his children were in the same building. Tragic and heartbreaking yes, but its happened so many times. How can it not be any more clear than that?

What's the shame in admitting that there are hardline Israelis that are just the same as Hamas, and that these people are popular among Israeli citizenry?


Irrelevant. If the warning is good in one case, then it is good in both cases.

But I would be curious to know exactly how you think it is seperate.

Hitler's warnings were delivered through nearly a decade of horrendous acts against Jews, public beatings and murders, burning of shops and forced business closures, exclusionism by law till eventually their citizenship from Germany was completely revoked. Israel's warning's were delivered via pamphlets.

 

[Xarog]

We all have different ideas of what the "heart of the issue" is.

True, but unless you're going to first admit that both sides have human beings fighting, you're not going to have much hope of your answer being the correct one.

Hamas has tunnels under the border to Egypt so why is it so hard to believe they want them to israel too?

Those tunnels are used primarily to smuggle through supplies such as food and medicine. Hamas spends 90% of its funds on things like medicine, education, civil servants, and so forth.

That may be true but the Israelis are there now and arent going anywhere. Generations of them have been born there and see it as there home. Do you then think all whites should be kicked out of South Africa because we did not originate from here?

Do you not agree that there is a vast difference between white people living in South Africa that is a democracy, and a White South Africa with a racist government designed to ensure the superior position of one segment of the population over another?

There is no peace because hamas keeps attacking israel causing them to attack palestine and the vicious circle keeps going. Remember hamas declared the most recent ceasefire over.

Well after Israel bombed Gaza, I think the fact that the ceasefire ended was pretty self-evident, just like the non-agression treaty between Germany and Russia was over when Germany invaded Russia in WW2.

As for the rest, did you just ignore everything I said? Hamas has only been around for 20 years, if that. So that's still a whole 20 years of occupation without any real peace initiatives from Israel's side. Israel is the occupying power. Israel has the worlds 4th largets army. Israel is the one with billions of dollars in loan guarantees from the US. In other words, Israel holds all the cards. If Israel was geniunely interested in peace, it would have aided the occupied territories in forming a functional government with true representation decades ago, long before Hamas was even born. But it didn't because hardline right-wingers want Gaza and the West Bank for Israel, and they want to clear out all the Palestinians first. Why else do you think Israel tolerates the settlements in the West Bank? Did you know that Israel's government DIRECTLY FINANCED families that decided to move into settlements within the occupied territories?

How on earth could the Palestinians form a viable independent state while this was going on? After 40 years, who would not be royally pissed at the constant denial of their basic human right of self-determination?

Obama has already declared his support for israels right to defend itself from hamas rockets. Israel will never lose US support, no matter who the US president is.

I think the Americans might not agree once it becomes a choice between sending billions of dollars to Israel in the form of loan guarantees, or having the government grant aid to the spiralling numbers of unemployed people, once their unemployment benefits end and people actually discover in large numbers what it is like to lack food security.

Oh, sorry... I didn't realize we were dealing with an infallible expert. Sorry we are all so wrong and pointless. Well done on your superior intellect.

Actually, why don't you just go back and read the thread instead of asking us to repost our refutations.

and try a little bit of humility sometime... it doesn't hurt.

You mistake frustration for arrogance. I posted my viewpoints and now you tell me to go sift through thousands of posts which may or may not contain a refutation to my original posts. That's like claiming you're wrong and you can find the answer if you use google. Not conducive to healthy debate at all.

How many Hamas rockets have landed on Israeli terrorist targets in the last few years? If someone knowingly has these combatant weapons on his premises, or fires weapons from within the premises, then he and all its occupants are no longer civilians and classed as enemy combatants.

Its the same rule of engagement the US military uses.

And the US military is in contravention of international law when it does this, and every instance of it carrying out behaviour by this rationale is a war crime.

Hitler's warnings were delivered through nearly a decade of horrendous acts against Jews, public beatings and murders, burning of shops and forced business closures, exclusionism by law till eventually their citizenship from Germany was completely revoked. Israel's warning's were delivered via pamphlets.

Oh, so it's the way you warn them that counts? Wow, I bet Hitler must be miffed right now in whatever pocket of Hell he's occupying. If only he used pamphlets, he could have killed the jews with impunity!

 

[semiautomatix]

Just watched the BBC news here. The reporter said that Hamas want to be perceived to be the winners no matter how many of their own civilians die in the process, and there's no sign yet they'll give in.

Seems this isn't nearly over not by a long shot. Just hope that Israel will be less haphazard in their bombing. They are allowing aid in and daily cease fires so thats a good thing

Well it is beginning to appear more and more as if Hamas cares even less for their citizens than Israel. At least at one point Israel was funding aid to Palestine.

This has become increasingly evident when they attacked first by firing rockets at Israel and declared the ceasefire over knowing full well that eventually they would incur the might of the IDF.

As such it should be up to Hamas to takes responsibility, but unrelenting and ruthless terrorists seldom give ground. They'd rather watch their own people die than admit fault. I think they may not be elected next time around.

I know Israel has far more compassion for the people and families of Palestine and hopefully there goal of eradicating the Hamas top brass will soon be over so that the suffering brought to the people by Hamas terrorists might end sooner than later.

 

[JHatman]

And the US military is in contravention of international law when it does this, and every instance of it carrying out behaviour by this rationale is a war crime.

Wow I didn't realise you were an expert on international law and rules of engagement, perhaps you should go and visit the Israeli soldiers I'll bet they're just itching to hear your views.

Oh, so it's the way you warn them that counts? Wow, I bet Hitler must be miffed right now in whatever pocket of Hell he's occupying. If only he used pamphlets, he could have killed the jews with impunity!

How you can even claim that there isn't a difference in what happened is beyond me. Why you decided to draw parallels between Hitlers tyranny and abuse of the Jews, and whats happening with the Jews and Palestinians is something racist hate groups love to do and its probably best we steer clear of this line of discussion.

 

[Xarog]

Wow I didn't realise you were an expert on international law and rules of engagement, perhaps you should go and visit the Israeli soldiers I'll bet they're just itching to hear your views.

Not an expert, but I am a law student and I have read enough to know that the US could easily be charged under the nuremburg standard of war crimes.

Infact (and I'm REALLY sorry I can't find a link to the story because it was actually hysterically funny in a sad way) a recent US ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, was quite irate at one point over a resolution that was being discussed in the General Assembly, because, if passed, it would actually mean that the US could be charged with warcrimes under the standards set by Nuremberg.

But if you'd like I'll get you nice little direct sources which actually quotes the law in question. How about it?

How you can even claim that there isn't a difference in what happened is beyond me.

You were the one claiming that it was justified to attack civilian targets as part of a military operation.

Why you decided to draw parallels between Hitlers tyranny and abuse of the Jews, and whats happening with the Jews and Palestinians is something racist hate groups love to do and its probably best we steer clear of this line of discussion.

To recap :

I claimed that it is wrong to attack civilian business centres. You said it was Ok. I asked you what possible justification there was, and you were the one who claimed that giving them a prior warning was justification enough. I responded by taking YOUR logic and applying it to another situation (Nazi Germany). In other words I was parroting your argument to show you just how unreasonable it is. And then you throw your toys out the cot and now you're making vague claims about racism, but it's YOUR OWN LOGIC!

If you want to claim that prior warning justifies attacks by a sovereign power's army against a civilian population, you have to live with the consequences of that principle, which in this case extends to justifying Hitlers actions towards the Jews. (Because like I said, they knew it was coming, enough so that plenty of Jews tried to flee beforehand)

Well it is beginning to appear more and more as if Hamas cares even less for their citizens than Israel. At least at one point Israel was funding aid to Palestine.

Quite wrong :

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/
(and yes, that IS *the* council on foreign relations, the think tank that pretty much contains a who's-who of influentual Americans... the same CFR to which SEVERAL US presidents (including Clinton) have been members of in the past... in terms of sources giving credence to Hamas claims, it really does not get any better than this)

Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. Indeed, the extensive social and political work done by Hamas - and its reputation among Palestinians as averse to corruption - partly explain its defeat of the Fatah old guard in the 2006 legislative vote. Hamas funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services, and Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections.

90% of Hamas' efforts are of a social nature. I.e. helping palestinians deal with a crippling blockade which denies them jobs, denies them medicine, denies them food, and denies them power.

This has become increasingly evident when they attacked first by firing rockets at Israel and declared the ceasefire over knowing full well that eventually they would incur the might of the IDF.

Don't you read? Israel bombed Gaza first.

As such it should be up to Hamas to takes responsibility, but unrelenting and ruthless terrorists seldom give ground. They'd rather watch their own people die than admit fault. I think they may not be elected next time around.

You might want to read the rest of the CFR article.

I know Israel has far more compassion for the people and families of Palestine and hopefully there goal of eradicating the Hamas top brass will soon be over so that the suffering brought to the people by Hamas terrorists might end sooner than later.

Sigh...

Just so you know, Uri Avnery served in the Israeli Knesset and is widely respected by many living inside Israel itself.

How Israel is Multiplying Hamas by a Thousand
Molten Lead in Gaza

By URI AVNERY

EJUST AFTER MIDNIGHT, Aljazeera’s Arabic channel was reporting on events in Gaza. Suddenly the camera was pointing upwards towards the dark sky. The screen was pitch black. Nothing could be seen, but there was a sound to be heard: the noise of airplanes, a frightening, a terrifying droning.

It was impossible not to think about the tens of thousands of Gazan children who were hearing that sound at that moment, cringing with fright, paralyzed by fear, waiting for the bombs to fall.

* * *

“ISRAEL MUST defend itself against the rockets that are terrorizing our Southern towns,” the Israeli spokesmen explained. “Palestinians must respond to the killing of their fighters inside the Gaza Strip,” the Hamas spokesmen declared.

As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water.

Those who decided to close the crossings – under whatever pretext – knew that there is no real cease-fire under these conditions.

That is the main thing. Then there came the small provocations which were designed to get Hamas to react. After several months, in which hardly any Qassam rockets were launched, an army unit was sent into the Strip “in order to destroy a tunnel that came close to the border fence”. From a purely military point of view, it would have made more sense to lay an ambush on our side of the fence. But the aim was to find a pretext for the termination of the cease-fire, in a way that made it plausible to put the blame on the Palestinians. And indeed, after several such small actions, in which Hamas fighters were killed, Hamas retaliated with a massive launch of rockets, and – lo and behold – the cease-fire was at an end. Everybody blamed Hamas.

* * *

WHAT WAS THE AIM? Tzipi Livni announced it openly: to liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza. The Qassams served only as a pretext.

Liquidate Hamas rule? That sounds like a chapter out of “The March of Folly”. After all, it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with. When I once asked a former Shin-Bet chief, Yaakov Peri, about it, he answered enigmatically: “We did not create it, but we did not hinder its creation.”

For years, the occupation authorities favored the Islamic movement in the occupied territories. All other political activities were rigorously suppressed, but their activities in the mosques were permitted. The calculation was simple and naive: at the time, the PLO was considered the main enemy, Yasser Arafat was the current Satan. The Islamic movement was preaching against the PLO and Arafat, and was therefore viewed as an ally.

With the outbreak of the first intifada in 1987, the Islamic movement officially renamed itself Hamas (Arabic initials of “Islamic Resistance Movement”) and joined the fight. Even then, the Shin-Bet took no action against them for almost a year, while Fatah members were executed or imprisoned in large numbers. Only after a year, were Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and his colleagues also arrested.

1/2

 

[Xarog]

2/2

Since then the wheel has turned. Hamas has now become the current Satan, and the PLO is considered by many in Israel almost as a branch of the Zionist organization. The logical conclusion for an Israeli government seeking peace would have been to make wide-ranging concessions to the Fatah leadership: ending of the occupation, signing of a peace treaty, foundation of the State of Palestine, withdrawal to the 1967 borders, a reasonable solution of the refugee problem, release of all Palestinian prisoners. That would have arrested the rise of Hamas for sure.

But logic has little influence on politics. Nothing of this sort happened. On the contrary, after the murder of Arafat, Ariel Sharon declared that Mahmoud Abbas, who took his place, was a “plucked chicken”. Abbas was not allowed the slightest political achievement. The negotiations, under American auspices, became a joke. The most authentic Fatah leader, Marwan Barghouti, was sent to prison for life. Instead of a massive prisoner release, there were petty and insulting “gestures”.

Abbas was systematically humiliated, Fatah looked like an empty shell and Hamas won a resounding victory in the Palestinian election – the most democratic election ever held in the Arab world. Israel boycotted the elected government. In the ensuing internal struggle, Hamas assumed direct control over the Gaza Strip.

And now, after all this, the government of Israel decided to “liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza” – with blood, fire and columns of smoke.

* * *

THE OFFICIAL NAME of the war is “Cast Lead”, two words from a children’s song about a Hanukkah toy.

It would be more accurate to call it “the the Election War”.

In the past, too, military action has been taken during election campaigns. Menachem Begin bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor during the 1981 campaign. When Shimon Peres claimed that this was an election gimmick, Begin cried out at his next rally: “Jews, do you believe that I would send our brave boys to their death or, worse, to be taken prisoner by human animals, in order to win an election?” Begin won.

Peres is no Begin. When, during the 1996 election campaign, he ordered the invasion of Lebanon (operation “Grapes of Wrath”), everybody was convinced that he had done it for electoral gain. The war was a failure and Peres lost the elections and Binyamin Netanyahu came to power.

Barak and Tzipi Livni are now resorting to the same old trick. According to the polls, Barak’s predicted election result rose within 48 hours by five Knesset seats. About 80 dead Palestinians for each seat. But it is difficult to walk on a pile of dead bodies. The success may evaporate in a minute if the war comes to be considered by the Israeli public as a failure. For example, if the rockets continue to hit Beersheba, or if the ground attack leads to heavy Israeli casualties.

The timing was chosen meticulously from another angle too. The attack started two days after Christmas, when American and European leaders are on holiday until after New Year. The calculation: even if somebody wanted to try and stop the war, no one would give up his holiday. That ensured several days free from outside pressures.

Another reason for the timing: these are George Bush’s last days in the White House. This blood-soaked moron could be expected to support the war enthusiastically, as indeed he did. Barack Obama has not yet entered office and had a ready made pretext for keeping silent: “there is only one President”. The silence does not bode well for the term of president Obama.

* * *

THE MAIN LINE was: not to repeat the mistakes of Lebanon War II. This was endlessly repeated on all the news programs and talk shows.

This does not change the fact: the Gaza War is an almost exact replica of the second Lebanon war.

The strategic concept is the same: to terrorize the civilian population by unremitting attacks from the air, sowing death and destruction. This poses no danger to the pilots, since the Palestinians have no anti-aircraft weapons at all. The calculation: if the entire life-supporting infrastructure in the Strip is utterly destroyed and total anarchy ensues, the population will rise up and overthrow the Hamas regime. Mahmoud Abbas will then ride back into Gaza on the back of Israeli tanks.

In Lebanon, this calculation did not work out. The bombed population, including the Christians, rallied behind Hizbullah, and Hassan Nasrallah became the hero of the Arab world. Something similar will probably happen this time, too. Generals are experts on using weapons and moving troops, not on mass psychology.

Some time ago I wrote that the Gaza blockade was a scientific experiment designed to find out how much one can starve a population and turn its life into hell before they break. This experiment was conducted with the generous help of Europe and the US. Up to now, it did not succeed. Hamas became stronger and the range of the Qassams became longer. The present war is a continuation of the experiment by other means.

It may be that the army will “have no alternative” but to re-conquer the Gaza Strip because there is no other way to stop the Qassams – except coming to an agreement with Hamas, which is contrary to government policy. When the ground invasion starts, everything will depend on the motivation and capabilities of the Hamas fighters vis-à-vis the Israeli soldiers. Nobody can know what will happen.

* * *

DAY AFTER DAY, night after night, Aljazeera’s Arabic channel broadcasts the atrocious pictures: heaps of mutilated bodies, tearful relatives looking for their dear ones among the dozens of corpses spread out on the ground, a woman pulling her young daughter from under the rubble, doctors without medicines trying to save the lives of the wounded. (The English-language Aljazeera, unlike its Arab-language sister-station, has undergone an amazing about face, broadcasting only a sanitized picture and freely distributing Israeli government propaganda. It would be interesting to know what happened there.)

Millions are seeing these terrible images, picture after picture, day after day. These images are imprinted on their minds forever: horrible Israel, abominable Israel, inhuman Israel. A whole generation of haters. That is a terrible price, which we will be compelled to pay long after the other results of the war itself have been forgotten in Israel.

But there is another thing that is being imprinted on the minds of these millions: the picture of the miserable, corrupt, passive Arab regimes.

As seen by Arabs, one fact stands out above all others: the wall of shame.

For the million and a half Arabs in Gaza, who are suffering so terribly, the only opening to the world that is not dominated by Israel is the border with Egypt. Only from there can food arrive to sustain life and medicaments to save the injured. This border remains closed at the height of the horror. The Egyptian army has blocked the only way for food and medicines to enter, while surgeons operate on the wounded without anesthetics.

Throughout the Arab world, from end to end, there echoed the words of Hassan Nasrallah: The leaders of Egypt are accomplices to the crime, they are collaborating with the “Zionist enemy” in trying to break the Palestinian people. It can be assumed that he did not mean only Mubarak, but also all the other leaders, from the king of Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian President. Seeing the demonstrations throughout the Arab world and listening to the slogans, one gets the impression that their leaders seem to many Arabs pathetic at best, and miserable collaborators at worst.

This will have historic consequences. A whole generation of Arab leaders, a generation imbued with the ideology of secular Arab nationalism, the successors of Gamal Abd-al-Nasser, Hafez al-Assad and Yasser Arafat, may be swept from the stage. In the Arab space, the only viable alternative is the ideology of Islamic fundamentalism.

This war is a writing on the wall: Israel is missing the historic chance of making peace with secular Arab nationalism. Tomorrow, It may be faced with a uniformly fundamentalist Arab world, Hamas multiplied by a thousand.

MY TAXI DRIVER in Tel-Aviv the other day was thinking aloud: Why not call up the sons of the ministers and members of the Knesset, form them into a combat unit and send them off to head the coming ground attack on Gaza?

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom.

 

[Xarog]

And that's not all. Here's a nice piece which actually does some geniune political analysis *gasp* :

Bringing Hamas to Heel
The Real Goal of the Gaza Assault

By JONATHAN COOK

Ever since Hamas triumphed in the Palestinian elections nearly three years ago, the story in Israel has been that a full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip was imminent. But even when public pressure mounted for a decisive blow against Hamas, the government backed off from a frontal assault.

Now the world waits for Ehud Barak, the defence minister, to send in the tanks and troops as the logic of this operation is pushing inexorably towards a ground war. Nonetheless, officials have been stalling. Significant ground forces are massed on Gaza’s border, but still the talk in Israel is of “exit strategies”, lulls and renewed ceasefires.

Even if Israeli tanks do lumber into the enclave, will they dare to move into the real battlegrounds of central Gaza? Or will they simply be used, as they have been in the past, to terrorise the civilian population on the peripheries?

Israelis are aware of the official reason for Mr Barak’s reticence to follow the air strikes with a large-scale ground war. They have been endlessly reminded that the worst losses sustained by the army in the second intifada took place in 2002 during the invasion of Jenin refugee camp.

Gaza, as Israelis know only too well, is one mammoth refugee camp. Its narrow alleys, incapable of being negotiated by Merkava tanks, will force Israeli soldiers out into the open. Gaza, in the Israeli imagination, is a death trap.

Similarly, no one has forgotten the heavy toll on Israeli soldiers during the ground war with Hizbollah in 2006. In a country such as Israel, with a citizen army, the public has become positively phobic of a war in which large numbers of its sons will be placed in the firing line.

That fear is only heightened by reports in the Israeli media that Hamas is praying for the chance to engage Israel’s army in serious combat. The decision to sacrifice many soldiers in Gaza is not one Mr Barak, leader of the Labor Party, will take lightly with an election in six weeks.

But there is another concern that has given him equal cause to hesitate.

Despite the popular rhetoric in Israel, no senior official really believes Hamas can be destroyed, either from the air or with brigades of troops. It is simply too entrenched in Gaza.

That conclusion is acknowledged in the tepid rationales offered so far for Israel’s operations. “Creating calm in the country’s south” and “changing the security environment” have been preferred over previous favourites, such as “rooting out the infrastructure of terror”.

An invasion whose real objective was the toppling of Hamas would, as Mr Barak and his officials understand, require the permanent military reoccupation of Gaza.

But overturning the disengagement from Gaza -- the 2005 brainchild of Ariel Sharon, the prime minister at the time -- would entail a huge military and financial commitment from Israel. It would once again have to assume responsibility for the welfare of the local civilian population, and the army would be forced into treacherous policing of Gaza’s teeming camps.

In effect, an invasion of Gaza to overthrow Hamas would be a reversal of the trend in Israeli policy since the Oslo process of the early 1990s.

It was then that Israel allowed the long-exiled Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, to return to the occupied territories in the new role of head of the Palestinian Authority. Naively, Arafat assumed he was leading a government-in-waiting. In truth, he simply became Israel’s chief security contractor.

Arafat was tolerated during the 1990s because he did little to stop Israel’s effective annexation of large parts of the West Bank through the rapid expansion of settlements and increasingly harsh movement restrictions on Palestinians. Instead, he concentrated on building up the security forces of his Fatah loyalists, containing Hamas and preparing for a statehood that never arrived.

When the second intifada broke out, Arafat proved he had outlived his usefulness to Israel. His Palestinian Authority was gradually emasculated.

Since Arafat’s death and the disengagement from Gaza, Israel has sought to consolidate the physical separation of the Strip from the much-coveted West Bank. Even if not originally desired by Israel, Hamas’s takeover of Gaza has contributed significantly to that goal.

Israel is now faced by two Palestinian national movements. The Fatah one, based in the West Bank and led by a weak president, Mahmoud Abbas, is largely discredited and compliant. The other, Hamas, based in Gaza, has grown in confidence as it claims to be the true guardian of resistance to the occupation.

Unable to destroy Hamas, Israel is now considering whether to live with the armed group next door.

Hamas has proved it can enforce its rule in Gaza much as Arafat once did in both occupied territories. The question being debated in Israel’s cabinet and war rooms is whether, like Arafat, Hamas can be made to collude with the occupation. It has proved it is strong, but can it be made useful to Israel, too?

In practice that would mean taming Hamas rather than crushing it. Whereas Israel is trying to build up Fatah in the West Bank with carrots, it is using the current slaughter in Gaza as a big stick with which to beat Hamas into compliance.

The ultimate objective is another truce stopping the rocket fire out of the Strip, like the six-month ceasefire that just ended, but on terms even more favourable to Israel.

The savage blockade that has deprived Gaza’s population of essentials for many months failed to achieve that goal. Instead, Hamas quickly took charge of the smuggling tunnels that became a lifeline for Gazans. The tunnels raised Hamas’s finances and popularity in equal measure.

It should come as no surprise that Israel has barely bothered to hit the Hamas leadership or its military wing. Instead it has bombed the tunnels, Hamas’s treasure chest, and it has killed substantial numbers of ordinary policemen, the guarantors of law and order in Gaza. Latest reports suggest Israel is now planning to expand its air strikes to Hamas’s welfare organisations, the charities that are the base of its popularity.

The air campaign is paring down Hamas’s ability to function effectively as the ruler of Gaza. It is undermining Hamas’s political power bases. The lesson is not that Hamas can be destroyed militarily but that it that can be weakened domestically.

Israel apparently hopes to persuade the Hamas leadership, as it did Arafat for a while, that its best interests are served by co-operating with Israel. The message is: forget about your popular mandate to resist the occupation and concentrate instead on remaining in power with our help.

In the fog of war, events may yet escalate in such a way that a serious ground invasion cannot be avoided, especially if Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel. But whatever happens, Israel and Hamas are almost certain in the end to agree to another ceasefire.

The issue will be whether in doing so, Hamas, like Arafat before it, loses sight of its primary task: to force Israel to end its occupation.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His latest books are “Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East” (Pluto Press) and “Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair” (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net.

 

[CyraxHB]

True, but unless you're going to first admit that both sides have human beings fighting, you're not going to have much hope of your answer being the correct one.


Those tunnels are used primarily to smuggle through supplies such as food and medicine. Hamas spends 90% of its funds on things like medicine, education, civil servants, and so forth.


Do you not agree that there is a vast difference between white people living in South Africa that is a democracy, and a White South Africa with a racist government designed to ensure the superior position of one segment of the population over another?



Well after Israel bombed Gaza, I think the fact that the ceasefire ended was pretty self-evident, just like the non-agression treaty between Germany and Russia was over when Germany invaded Russia in WW2.

As for the rest, did you just ignore everything I said? Hamas has only been around for 20 years, if that. So that's still a whole 20 years of occupation without any real peace initiatives from Israel's side. Israel is the occupying power. Israel has the worlds 4th largets army. Israel is the one with billions of dollars in loan guarantees from the US. In other words, Israel holds all the cards. If Israel was geniunely interested in peace, it would have aided the occupied territories in forming a functional government with true representation decades ago, long before Hamas was even born. But it didn't because hardline right-wingers want Gaza and the West Bank for Israel, and they want to clear out all the Palestinians first. Why else do you think Israel tolerates the settlements in the West Bank? Did you know that Israel's government DIRECTLY FINANCED families that decided to move into settlements within the occupied territories?

How on earth could the Palestinians form a viable independent state while this was going on? After 40 years, who would not be royally pissed at the constant denial of their basic human right of self-determination?


I think the Americans might not agree once it becomes a choice between sending billions of dollars to Israel in the form of loan guarantees, or having the government grant aid to the spiralling numbers of unemployed people, once their unemployment benefits end and people actually discover in large numbers what it is like to lack food security.

I highly doubt 90% of hamas smuggling operation involves medicine etc. Do you have a link to substantiate your claim?

I dont see much of a difference between whites under the NATS and whites under the ANC except they are now upset about things like crime, incompetence in government etc. Although these things may have always been present to some extent, they are much worse now. And why is this relevant anyway?

The ceasefire ended because hamas was tunneling into israel as covered earlier in the thread. You cant blame israel for firing on them.

I think israel is interested in peace but on terms that ensure its citizens are safe. And as hamas doesnt even recognise israels right to exist, thats not going to happen anytime soon.

As for the rest, you seem to be saying that palestinians have been there a long time. I agree with that, but so have the jews.

Even if the US stopped sending military aid to israel (however unlikely) it doesnt mean they wouldnt be allies anymore. And besides, the world is in a recession that will probably be over in a few years. Its not as if the US is going to go bankrupt anytime soon.

 

[Loop...]

Probably because you're unwilling to adress the heart of the issue.


As I have claimed before, Hamas fired rockets in response to an Israeli raid which killed members of Hamas. Of course, Israel claims that it was targetting a tunnel that was meant to enter Israel, but Israel hardly has a proven track-record for telling the truth.



This is also false. The palestinians have been occupied by a foreign power for the last 60 years, the last 40 of which have been under Israel's control.

I've already point out here : http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2434430&postcount=2227
And here : http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=2434433&postcount=2229

Why any ceasefire by Hamas is utterly pointless. There has not been a SINGLE geniune peace offer made by Israel, EVER. And that's because Israel ultimately wants Erets Yisrael to itself.


Actually the Palestinians are reacting to 40 years of Israeli occupation. Just like the ANC eventually started reacting violently to Apartheid.


And Israel knew that Hamas would not stop firing rockets while they were not offered a viable peace deal. Thus by your rationale, Israel is to blame.


I wouldn't count on that support too much longer if I was Israel.

+1 very good points there sir.

 

[semiautomatix]

How you can even claim that there isn't a difference in what happened is beyond me. Why you decided to draw parallels between Hitlers tyranny and abuse of the Jews, and whats happening with the Jews and Palestinians is something racist hate groups love to do and its probably best we steer clear of this line of discussion.

A lot of terrorist supporters would claim that this is similar to the Holocaust. What a lot of trumped up bull. The concentration camps, people dying of pure starvations, mass graves, the medical experiments, torture. None of what is happening in Gaza is similar.

Perhaps we can draw parallels with Gaza being the equivalent of Nazi Germany. A mad man in charge, a party not to dissimilar to Hamas that got into power by buying votes through its social reform programmes - promising to make Germany a superpower once more. Hamas is involved in a similar programme to that of the Nazis, and could be likened to that period of the early 1930s.

Like Hamas the Nazis started a war they could not finish. Toward the end German soldiers, children, mothers and sisters were dying at the hands of the carpet bombs and ground troops of the allies. They all suffered and died because of their support of an evil organisation. The evil in that country bred evil, many would ten years before would not have dreamed of rounding up Jews in a gas chamber now do it without remorse; the same can be said of Hamas suicide bombers.

Israel are merely the allies liberating a country from terrorists and those that supported them are the unfortunate casualties of war. Bombing is never accurate, and as in WWII many innocents died.

Hitler was so hell bent on never surrendering that his own people suffered needlessly till the bitter end. This is an attitude that Hamas has adopted and until Israel gets to Hamas' Berlin the killing will not stop. Hitler had the power to end the war, as does Hamas. But both were/are too arrogant and proud to admit defeat and wrong doing.

So I do believe that Israel is doing what it must to rid the world of another Nazi regime.