The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Xarog]

I highly doubt 90% of hamas smuggling operation involves medicine etc. Do you have a link to substantiate your claim?

See above.

I dont see much of a difference between whites under the NATS and whites under the ANC except they are now upset about things like crime, incompetence in government etc. Although these things may have always been present to some extent, they are much worse now. And why is this relevant anyway?

Because the whites under the NATS suppressed the black people who got quite upset about it and eventually mounted violent resistance. And surprise surprise, when true democracy came to the country, we found that black people and white people could, *gasp*, more or less live in peace with each other.

And yet over here in S.A. people were rablidly denouncing the ANC as terrorists and claiming that whites would all be slaughtered the minute they took power. And yet the cause for the original resistance was the fact that black people were denied the right to vote and to participate in government and have a say over what happens to them... notice the similarities yet?

The ceasefire ended because hamas was tunneling into israel as covered earlier in the thread. You cant blame israel for firing on them.

Wrong. The tunnel was in Gaza. Israel claimed that they intended to extend the tunnel into Israel. And as Avnery notes, it would have made more tactical sense to simply wait for them at the entrance of the tunnel.

I think israel is interested in peace but on terms that ensure its citizens are safe. And as hamas doesnt even recognise israels right to exist, thats not going to happen anytime soon.

As I've already said in this thread, no nation has any right to exist. No other nation in the world has ever had its right to exist recognised to my knowledge.

As for the rest, you seem to be saying that palestinians have been there a long time. I agree with that, but so have the jews.

Sephardic Jews have been living in the area for millenia. Curiously enough they were rather strongly opposed to the first zionist settlements on the grounds that it would create violence in the region... who'da thunk?

Even if the US stopped sending military aid to israel (however unlikely) it doesnt mean they wouldnt be allies anymore. And besides, the world is in a recession that will probably be over in a few years. Its not as if the US is going to go bankrupt anytime soon.

The US is bankrupt already. It is several trillion dollars in debt and there is just no ways for it to pay back that debt for the forseeable future. The ONLY thing which is keeping it afloat is the dollar's status as a reserve currency.

 

[Loop...]

We all have different ideas of what the "heart of the issue" is.

Ja and some of our ideas are wrong I.E yours, the heart of the Issue is years of Israeli occupation ans systematic oppression.

That may be true but the Israelis are there now and arent going anywhere. Generations of them have been born there and see it as there home. Do you then think all whites should be kicked out of South Africa because we did not originate from here?.

Fool generations of Israelis weren't born there Israel hasn't they havent even been around for one generation to die yet. 1948 Is when jews from all over the world came to Israel. BTW most Israelis are from Brooklyn, New York so dont talk your nonsense about pedegree of these people, Palestine was there before the brits gave the land to Israel.

You ask about whites being kicked out, that didn't happen. so what re you talking about?

There is no peace because hamas keeps attacking israel causing them to attack palestine and the vicious circle keeps going. Remember hamas declared the most recent ceasefire over.

Wrong and unfounded. prove it.

Obama has already declared his support for israels right to defend itself from hamas rockets. Israel will never lose US support, no matter who the US president is.

Wrong again. He said a country has the right to defend itself against attack. Which is common knowledge.

 

[semiautomatix]

Ja and some of our ideas are wrong I.E yours, the heart of the Issue is years of Israeli occupation ans systematic oppression.

Fool generations of Israelis weren't born there Israel hasn't they havent even been around for one generation to die yet. 1948 Is when jews from all over the world came to Israel. BTW most Israelis are from Brooklyn, New York so dont talk your nonsense about pedegree of these people, Palestine was there before the brits gave the land to Israel.

You do realise that 60 years is already the start of a third generation? Or do most members of your family have children only once every 60 years? In fact according to figures of the country’s Jewish and non-Arab population, 65 percent were born in Israel. So maybe you stop with the name calling because you're the one in the wrong.

You ask about whites being kicked out, that didn't happen. so what re you talking about?

Wrong and unfounded. prove it.

Wrong again. He said a country has the right to defend itself against attack. Which is common knowledge.

You do realise that the United States of America is bigger than just Barack Obama? Wait for him to get into power, he knows which side his bread is buttered on.

 

[Loop...]

I think this thread has helped differentiate those with a superior intelligence from the just plain stupids. The amount of ignorance I've seen on this thread from the pro-Israeli guys is astounding. So eager to regurgitate what they think they know, so quick to deny the facts and so callous when it comes to empathising with another human being.

Those, on here that have changed your mind or has the capability to see things from both sides I applaud you, but on the other hand, there are two opinions unfortunately one of those opinion is wrong. What Israel is doing is wrong. bottom line.

Lots of people supported Apartheid, hell even the U.S supported apartheid, now how many of you experts knew that? the U.S also supported Bin Laden and now they supporting Israel. Awesome track record.

In time we will see how this story will unfold, Every evil has always come down in time, Stalin, Hitler, Apartheid, Mussolini. I pray Palestine will be set free gain their own borders and the Israeli occupation ends. Then will we see peace.

Our South African freedom fighters have done for us what they are trying to accomplish there. I feel fortunate and wish them good luck.

 

[Loop...]

You do realise that 60 years is already the start of a third generation? Or do most members of your family have children only once every 60 years? In fact according to figures of the country’s Jewish and non-Arab population, 65 percent were born in Israel. So maybe you stop with the name calling because you're the one in the wrong.



You do realise that the United States of America is bigger than just Barack Obama? Wait for him to get into power, he knows which side his bread is buttered on.

When you speak about generations of people you talk about Zulus, you talk about Native Americans, not this mother and grandmother all having children at 20. There are a large number of people that are living long enough to see the country being created so no, Sill maintain thats a fool comment!

Plus I know Barack isnt going to change the policy, he was implying that was going to happen not me. I just corrected his misrepresentation of the truth buddy.

 

[semiautomatix]

I think this thread has helped differentiate those with a superior intelligence from the just plain stupids. The amount of ignorance I've seen on this thread from the pro-Israeli guys is astounding. So eager to regurgitate what they think they know, so quick to deny the facts and so callous when it comes to empathising with another human being.

lol

Is someone unable to muster a proper response? Did we run out of things to say? I think I need to use that quote in my sig "the just plain stupids".

Oh, and I love how its only people that disagree with your point of view. But gosh, being a 12 year old, does your mom know you're up this late?

 

[Xarog]

lol

Is someone unable to muster a proper response? Did we run out of things to say? I think I need to use that quote in my sig "the just plain stupids".

Oh, and I love how its only people that disagree with your point of view. But gosh, being a 12 year old, does your mom know you're up this late?

Could say the same for you, seeing as you ignore all my posts, even when they totally smash your assertions to shreds.

Pot calling kettle black, anyone?

 

[CyraxHB]

See above.


Because the whites under the NATS suppressed the black people who got quite upset about it and eventually mounted violent resistance. And surprise surprise, when true democracy came to the country, we found that black people and white people could, *gasp*, more or less live in peace with each other.

And yet over here in S.A. people were rablidly denouncing the ANC as terrorists and claiming that whites would all be slaughtered the minute they took power. And yet the cause for the original resistance was the fact that black people were denied the right to vote and to participate in government and have a say over what happens to them... notice the similarities yet?


Wrong. The tunnel was in Gaza. Israel claimed that they intended to extend the tunnel into Israel. And as Avnery notes, it would have made more tactical sense to simply wait for them at the entrance of the tunnel.


As I've already said in this thread, no nation has any right to exist. No other nation in the world has ever had its right to exist recognised to my knowledge.


Sephardic Jews have been living in the area for millenia. Curiously enough they were rather strongly opposed to the first zionist settlements on the grounds that it would create violence in the region... who'da thunk?


The US is bankrupt already. It is several trillion dollars in debt and there is just no ways for it to pay back that debt for the forseeable future. The ONLY thing which is keeping it afloat is the dollar's status as a reserve currency.

If you're referring to the articles you posted I'd take that info with a pinch of salt. Its been a while since Ive read such a biased article.

Dont generalise about the whole white race, most whites just minded their own business and had nothing to do with oppressing anyone. And the reason there was minimal slaughter when power changed hands is due to the manner that this happened. If the ANC had been capable of overthrowing the NATS militarily I think things would have turned out quite differently. I doubt the gaza situation will turn out like SA mainly because the gaza population is small and is not needed by the israeli economy and so the israelis have no motivation to want any sort of integration. This could not be escaped in SA because our economy could not function without the black population.

I dont see how it makes sense to wait for them to tunnel under the border. If you see someone breaking into your house do you wait for him to actually get in and attack you before doing anything about it?

Of course nations have the right to exist. The fact that governments have their diplomats stationed in other countries means they accept that they are a nation and as such recognise them.

US GPD is about $14 trillion as far as I know so being a few trillion in debt is not the end of the world.

 

[semiautomatix]

When you speak about generations of people you talk about Zulus, you talk about Native Americans, not this mother and grandmother all having children at 20. There are a large number of people that are living long enough to see the country being created so no, Sill maintain thats a fool comment!

Plus I know Barack isnt going to change the policy, he was implying that was going to happen not me. I just corrected his misrepresentation of the truth buddy.

No, no, I'm pretty sure generations is the plural of generation. As in more than one... and by my count three was more than one the last time I checked. But you were the one bringing up one generation not dying yet right? But now you have to wait thousands of years for that? Fsck me those Native Americans must be old!

EDIT: If you're born in the country you have every right as the next person to be there. It doesn't matter how many generations of your family have lived there. End. Of. Story.

Oh, and you'd only need to have children at 30 for 3 generations to be born. Maths isn't your strong point, is it?

 

[CyraxHB]

Ja and some of our ideas are wrong I.E yours, the heart of the Issue is years of Israeli occupation ans systematic oppression.

And yours are about supporting terrorists who only target civilians.

Fool generations of Israelis weren't born there Israel hasn't they havent even been around for one generation to die yet. 1948 Is when jews from all over the world came to Israel. BTW most Israelis are from Brooklyn, New York so dont talk your nonsense about pedegree of these people, Palestine was there before the brits gave the land to Israel.

You ask about whites being kicked out, that didn't happen. so what re you talking about?

Actually, moron (as you insist on using insults), children have been born in israel. Ill have to explain what generations means. Child, father, grandfather = 3 generations of a family.
I never said whites were kicked out, i said should they? read!

Wrong and unfounded. prove it.

Some of us open our eyes and have seen this happen again and again over the years.

Wrong again. He said a country has the right to defend itself against attack. Which is common knowledge.

Which is exactly what I said.

 

[semiautomatix]

And yours are about supporting terrorists who only target civilians.

Actually, moron (as you insist on using insults), children have been born in israel. Ill have to explain what generations means. Child, father, grandfather = 3 generations of a family.
I never said whites were kicked out, i said should they? read!

Some of us open our eyes and have seen this happen again and again over the years.

Which is exactly what I said.

Don't know if we should bother any more. Loop labels everyone who disagrees with him fool and Xarog labels everyone who disagrees with him racist. Between them they don't seem to have managed a pass in Matric Maths and History; more of an irritation than an actual challenging argument.

 

[Xarog]

If you're referring to the articles you posted I'd take that info with a pinch of salt. Its been a while since Ive read such a biased article.

...

The original source about the percentange of its resources (90%) that Hamas spends on social projects came from the fricken council on foreign relations. Do you even know who you are calling biased?

From wiki (bold mine) :

Notable historical members

* Graham Allison
* Robert Orville Anderson
* Les Aspin
* J. Bowyer Bell[36]
* W. Michael Blumenthal
* Harold Brown
* Zbigniew Brzezinski
* William P. Bundy
* George H. W. Bush
* Dick Cheney
* William S. Cohen
* Warren Christopher
* E. Gerald Corrigan
* William J. Crowe
* Kenneth W. Dam
* John W. Davis
* Norman Davis
* C. Douglas Dillon
* Thomas R. Donahue
* Lewis W. Douglas
* Elizabeth Drew
* Peggy Dulany
* Allen Welsh Dulles
* Dianne Feinstein
* Tom Foley
* Leslie H. Gelb
* David Gergen
* Louis V. Gerstner, Jr.
* Maurice R. Greenberg
* Alan Greenspan
* Chuck Hagel
* Najeeb E. Halaby
* W. Averell Harriman
* Theodore M. Hesburgh
* Carla A. Hills
* Stanley Hoffmann
* Richard Holbrooke
* James R. Houghton
* Charlayne Hunter-Gault
* Bobby Ray Inman
* Otto H. Kahn
* Nicholas Katzenbach
* Lane Kirkland
* Jeane Kirkpatrick
* Roger T. Moritz
* Walter Lippmann
* Winston Lord
* Charles Mathias, Jr.
* John McCain
* John J. McCloy
* William J. McDonough
* Donald F. McHenry
* George J. Mitchell
* Bill Moyers
* Peter George Peterson
* Frank Polk
* John S. Reed
* Elliot L. Richardson
* Alice M. Rivlin
* David Rockefeller
* Jay Rockefeller
* Robert Roosa
* Elihu Root
* William D. Ruckelshaus
* Brent Scowcroft
* Donna E. Shalala
* George P. Shultz
* Theodore Sorensen
* George Soros
* Adlai E. Stevenson
* Strobe Talbott
* Peter Tarnoff
* Fred Thompson
* Garrick Utley
* Cyrus Vance
* Paul Volcker
* Paul M. Warburg
* Paul Warnke
* Clifton R. Wharton, Jr.
* Owen D. Young
* Robert Zoellick

The bolded names are just the names I recognise. Colin Powell is one of the current directors, and I am pretty certain that Bill Clinton was a member at some point. You think the CFR is biased towards Hamas? FFS, please get real.

Dont generalise about the whole white race, most whites just minded their own business and had nothing to do with oppressing anyone.

You do realise that I am a white South African with ancestors going back to the french hugenots, right?

And the reason there was minimal slaughter when power changed hands is due to the manner that this happened. If the ANC had been capable of overthrowing the NATS militarily I think things would have turned out quite differently.

Actually, changes started occuring in the 80s when the nats realised that their total onslaught philosophy was failing. Much like Israel will eventually realise that their total onslaught policy is failing. Note how the nats painted the whole thing as an existential crisis, much like Israel does today. And obviously there are plenty moderate Israelis going about their daily business JUST like white South Africans used to do. There are Israelis who violently oppose what is going on, JUST like white South Africans used to oppose what was going on. Do some research on Israeli conscientious objectors, for goodness sake. How many South Africans refused to serve in the SADF for moral reasons and spent their time in prison? Surprise surprise, another shocking paralell.

I doubt the gaza situation will turn out like SA mainly because the gaza population is small and is not needed by the israeli economy and so the israelis have no motivation to want any sort of integration. This could not be escaped in SA because our economy could not function without the black population.

At the rate it is going, with the expansions and the drama, Israel will one day be forced to annex both territories. If it sees the markings on the wall before then, it will being an earnest peace process and give Palestinians a true and viable state. If it doesn't, it will be forced to annex the territories (or commit genocide, but this is unlikely), and from then on, with the birth rates as they are, it will only be a matter of time before Israel either has to give up its Jewish character, or it will have to cease being a democracy.

I dont see how it makes sense to wait for them to tunnel under the border.

They never tunneled under the border. There was a tunnel near the border. Israel claimed that Hamas intended to dig into Israel, but this assertion is entirely without any proof. (I.e. Israel is making claims about Hamas' intentions which it cannot prove)

Of course nations have the right to exist. The fact that governments have their diplomats stationed in other countries means they accept that they are a nation and as such recognise them.

Recognising that a nation exists and recognising that a nation has a right to exist are two entirely different things.

US GPD is about $14 trillion as far as I know so being a few trillion in debt is not the end of the world.

Trade deficit is at $16 trillion. Budget deficit is at 1.2 trillion. So, the US would have to work for an entire year, spending NOTHING on itself and giving everything it earns for over a year before it will reach balance.

What do you call it when you have to work for a year just to pay your debts? That's not merely bankrupt, that's when you're in a state of being "fuxxored".

 

[Xarog]

Don't know if we should bother any more. Loop labels everyone who disagrees with him fool and Xarog labels everyone who disagrees with him racist. Between them they don't seem to have managed a pass in Matric Maths and History; more of an irritation than an actual challenging argument.

Well, when you paint the Palestinians as the same brush as all Arabs, one struggles to find a suitable (yet different) term for it.... But I'm still waiting for you to prove that the Palestinians had any standing army OR that they even had a functional government at the time that hostilities broke out. Please, prove to me that the Palestinians were anything but innocent bystanders to the war. Since you seem to think that I couldn't even pass Matric history (which I did btw, on HG nogal), it should surely be easy for a master scholar like yourself to ferret this information out.

Of course, on the other hand I could just be better informed about history than you, and seeing as you cannot prove your baseless assertions, you have to resort to ad-hominems as a substitute.

 

[marine1]

I never said I didn't feel the same way about hamas.

But I do expect better from Israel.

Thats your problem right there, why should you expect Israel to just sit back and take the abuse? Why should Hamas be allowed to do as they please?

 

[marine1]

Well, when you paint the Palestinians as the same brush as all Arabs, one struggles to find a suitable (yet different) term for it.... But I'm still waiting for you to prove that the Palestinians had any standing army OR that they even had a functional government at the time that hostilities broke out. Please, prove to me that the Palestinians were anything but innocent bystanders to the war. Since you seem to think that I couldn't even pass Matric history (which I did btw, on HG nogal), it should surely be easy for a master scholar like yourself to ferret this information out.

Of course, on the other hand I could just be better informed about history than you, and seeing as you cannot prove your baseless assertions, you have to resort to ad-hominems as a substitute.

Wow I wish I was a law student as well

 

[Xarog]

Wow I wish I was a law student as well

Yeah, maybe then you'd be able consider a point of view objectively, and to string a coherent argument together based on the merits of the case without resorting to snide one liners and ad-hominems ad-infinitum.

 

[marine1]

Yeah, maybe then you'd be able consider a point of view objectively, and to string a coherent argument together based on the merits of the case without resorting to snide one liners and ad-hominems ad-infinitum.

Just like you hey? Funny I have not seen you once defend the Jews or Israel. Funny that hey?
Objectivity is definitely not your strong point.
But then you probably going to be a criminal attorney, right?

 

[Xarog]

Just like you hey? Funny I have not seen you once defend the Jews or Israel. Funny that hey?
Objectivity is definitely not your strong point.

On the contrary. Israel has enough people singing its praises in this thread. Since you want to use law analogies, both sides have a right to be represented and I am merely debunking unreasonable criticism directed at the Palestinians.

Of course, I actually do research on the subject and don't just regurgitate propaganda found in mainstream newspapers so I can understand how some might find it a little unsettling.

But then you probably going to be a criminal attorney, right?

Actually, I was thinking of going into administrative law; you know, mandamus orders, making government behave, ensuring that it doesn't operate outside the bounds of law, that kind of thing...

 

[Ethel]

Of course, I actually do research on the subject and don't just regurgitate propaganda found in mainstream newspapers so I can understand how some might find it a little unsettling.

So all the mainstream news media are pro-Israel in your mind?

 

[rwenzori]

So all the mainstream news media are pro-Israel in your mind?

Frankie, the main American news media are mostly anti-Islam, and mislead public perceptions to varying degrees. There is an interesting study about this in relation to the war in Iraq ( if anyone here actually wants to debate seriously instead of the predominant mudslinging ):

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf

It is interesting that Republicans are far more likely to be taken in by the falsities than Democrats.