The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Glock26]

Thank you Dave. We may disagree on a lot of things, but that is a good laugh and a nice change from the serious stuff. ;-)
LOL

G26

 

[Xarog]

The destruction of villages is NOT Ethnic cleansing.

OK, let's pretend for a moment that you are right....

THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE OTHER MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE WHICH POINTS TO ETHNIC CLEANSING WHICH YOU HAVE ENTIRELY IGNORED!

OOH. You mean like the publicly stated (and constantly practiced) intention of the surrounding Arab world to systematically and completely wipe out the nation of Israel?

The same claim which also states repeatedly that they have no grudge against Jews?

Yeah..that fits better.
Not quite sure you can label Israel fighting for their survival against a vast majority the same thing.

Difference between certain Arab nations and Israel : Arabs said they'd do it, Israelis actually did it. Of course, at the time this occured, the Palestinians were innocent bystanders. But don't let that disturb your trip to cloud-cuckoo land.

Poor Palestinians. Didn't commit any atrocities at all!
Wonder how Israeli civilians go about pursuing lawsuits against bombers who blew up nightclubs and bars?
Must be a way..surely!

No one has said that the Palestinians are blameless. However, you do get a few fools trying to claim that Israel is blameless. Furthermore, atrocities like that only started occuring after 20 years of occupation. But I'm sure that doesn't stop you from exclaiming in geniune surprise "Why would they want to do such an awful thing!?"



Btw, still waiting for you to explain why you quote from people whom you claim are marxist crackpots. Why should I believe anything you have to say when you are so utterly disingenuous?

 

[daveza]

Perhaps it's time for all of us liberal flower children to just accept the fact that Israel is the only country in the world that never ever does anything wrong.

It's just so hard.

 

[Glock26]

Btw, still waiting for you to explain why you quote from people whom you claim are marxist crackpots. Why should I believe anything you have to say when you are so utterly disingenuous?

Sigh again.
Ok kid...if you really need to be spoonfed again.

You used Pappe as an example of what is happening
I pointed out that Pappe had been discredited by many people, including a quote from Benny Morris.
You quoted Benny as saying :"Above all let me reiterate, the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumour of atrocities - and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return."
I told you that I (and many others) regard Benny as a Marxist crackpot, and even as twisted and silly as some of his arguments are..even he was against Pappe's statements and your own argument.

Clear enough for you?
I don't care what Pappe or Benny say frankly. They are irrellevant (to use your term) to me. You used them as sources and I discredited them both.

Funny still that both are anti Israel, and yet Morris says that Pappe is wrong and his book is bull. Neither can seem to make up their minds.

 

[BBSA]

OK, let's pretend for a moment that you are right....

THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE OTHER MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE WHICH POINTS TO ETHNIC CLEANSING WHICH YOU HAVE ENTIRELY IGNORED!

What evidence?

 

[Glock26]

Perhaps it's time for all of us liberal flower children to just accept the fact that Israel is the only country in the world that never ever does anything wrong.

It's just so hard.

I don't recall anyone in 268 pages claiming that Israel had done nothing wrong.

Go back and read it all.

G26

 

[Xarog]

What evidence?

Israel opened up part of its archives in the 1980s for investigation by historians. This coincided with the emergence of various Israeli historians, called New Historians, who favored a more critical analysis of Israel's history. The most famous scholar of this group, Benny Morris, concludes that Jewish military attacks were the main direct cause of the exodus, followed by Arab fear due to the fall of a nearby town, Arab fear of impending attack, and expulsions. The traditional Israeli version was replaced by a new version stating that the exodus was caused by neither Israeli nor Arab policies, but rather was a by-product of the 1948 Arab Israeli War

Chasing people away by attacking their villages = Ethnic Cleansing.

Now either you are a lying weasel, or you really have the attention span of a gold fish.

How on earth can you honestly expect anyone to believe a single word you've said when you will quote stuff which refutes your own claims, and then pretend that your own posts don't even exist??

 

[Xarog]

I don't recall anyone in 268 pages claiming that Israel had done nothing wrong.

Go back and read it all.

G26

No, but you will go ahead and claim that Israel is not in any way responsible for the way events have occured.

 

[Generix]

You seem to conveniently (and this is the heart of the whole matter) ignore the fact that the Arabs have vast areas of the Middle East. In fact, pretty much the whole of the Middle east. Israel has a tiny tiny portion, and no-where to retreat to. They are fighting for existence, whereas the Arabs are fighting for the entire region. Who is doing the ethnic cleansing of the whole region?

Ouch! For a moment there I thought you were talking about Palestinians in Gaza

You see the Arab countries setting up areas within themselves put aside for Christians and Jews etc?

You mean you are in favour of them herding resident Christians and Jews into designated areas or fenced-off camps?

You need to rethink your concept of "ethnic cleansing" Israel has Arab citizens who have more rights than they do in any of the surrounding Arab countries. They are happy to incorporate Arabs into their population. Show me an Arab country with the same record? They admit they want the extermination of the Jews and Israel. I haven't seen Israel having a problem living surrounded by Egypt and Jordan and all the others around them. Funny huh?

Hmmm.

They are?! So what's the fuss been about the past 60 years? And why bulldoze Arab homes and settle bona fide Israeli citizens, who subscribe to the ideology of a "Jewish state with a Jewish character" there?

Perhaps it is useful to distinguish between what people say and what they actually do. Saying something and actualy doing it, are two different kettles of fish. But to accuse someone else of wanting to do the very thing that you are doing to him right now, smacks of dishonesty, to put it gently.

 

[Xarog]

Sigh again.
Ok kid...if you really need to be spoonfed again.

Au contraire.

You used Pappe as an example of what is happening

First mistake. Assassin used him to back up an assertion, not me.

I pointed out that Pappe had been discredited by many people, including a quote from Benny Morris.

Yes, whom you also called a marxist crackpot.

You quoted Benny as saying :"Above all let me reiterate, the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumour of atrocities - and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return."
I told you that I (and many others) regard Benny as a Marxist crackpot, and even as twisted and silly as some of his arguments are..even he was against Pappe's statements and your own argument.

Actually, what you've just quoted agrees with what Peppe said. Look at the bold part. Which goes back to you trying to refute what someone said by quoting someone who actually agrees with him on the matter that assassin quoted Peppe on.

FAIL.

Clear enough for you?

Quite clear.

I don't care what Pappe or Benny say frankly. They are irrellevant (to use your term) to me. You used them as sources and I discredited them both.

Actually, you brought Benny into it. I then pointed out that Benny agreed with Peppe in the matter you were trying to use Benny to discredit Peppe on. Epic fail.

Funny still that both are anti Israel,

Actually, Benny went pro-israeli. Guess that makes him one of the "good guys" now?

and yet Morris says that Pappe is wrong and his book is bull.

But not on the part which assassin quoted Peppe on. They agree on that bit. And in fact, so do a ton of other scholars, such as Avnery and Finkelstein. Even the Israeli government admits that there were attacks by the Israeli military on arab villages.

Neither can seem to make up their minds.

Quite incorrect. Sorry that it was you who needed spoonfeeding.

 

[BBSA]

Chasing people away by attacking their villages = Ethnic Cleansing.

Now either you are a lying weasel, or you really have the attention span of a gold fish.

Personal attacks is not going to help your argument. It actually just shows your imaturaty.

You missed this part:

The traditional Israeli version was replaced by a new version stating that the exodus was caused by neither Israeli nor Arab policies, but rather was a by-product of the 1948 Arab Israeli War.

 

[Xarog]

Personal attacks is not going to help your argument. It actually just shows your imaturaty.

ROFL. Take the plank out of your own eye before you complain about someone else's splinters.

You missed this part:
The traditional Israeli version was replaced by a new version stating that the exodus was caused by neither Israeli nor Arab policies, but rather was a by-product of the 1948 Arab Israeli War.

Otherwise known as historical revisionism. It's not like the Israeli government has any motives to lie about their war crimes, is it? Nonono, I'm sure the Israeli government would never do any such thing if they were in fact guilty!

And even so, the revisionism only defers responsibility, it does not deny the fact that the Israeli Army attacked villages predominantly populated by arabs. Fail again.

And then we come back to the part about villages being destroyed. What else could it possibly be, except ethnic cleansing, when people flee a warzone and come back to find that the Israeli government was kind enough to destroy their homes while they were fleeing for safety???

And you STILL don't point to your sources which means it's impossible to see where this "new claim" comes from.

Massacres were aimed at frightening Palestinians away. In his memoirs the Palestinian physician Elias Srouji wrote:

Tactics became even more brutal when the Zionists were ready to complete their occupation of the Galilee in October. By that time the Arab villagers, having seen what had happened elsewhere, had become adamant about staying put in their homes and on their lands. To frighten them away, the occupying forces started a strategy of planned massacres, which were carried out in Eilabun, Faradiyya, Safsaf, Sa'sa', and other villages. In places where this was not to their advantage for one reason or another, the army would resort to forceful expulsion. I was to wittnes some of these tactics in Rameh a month or so later.[202]

Massacres were also exploited by Jewish propaganda. For instance Nathan Krystall writes:

News of the attack on and massacre in Deir Yassin spread quickly throughout Palestine. De Reynier argued that the 'general terror' was 'astutely fostered by the Jews, with Haganah radio incessantly repeating 'Remember Deir Yassin' and loudspeaker vans broadcasting messages in Arabic such as: 'Unless you leave your homes, the fate of Deir Yassin will be your fate. [203]

According to Flapan, "from another perspective, [the Deir Yassin massacre] made perfect sense. More panic was sown among the Arab population by this operation than by anything that had happened up to then. […] While Ben-Gurion condemned the massacre in no uncertain terms, he did nothing to curb the independent actions of the Jewish underground armies."[204]

Look at all the authors writing about this? Do you think they're all liars??

Btw, on Deir Yassin :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin

Deir Yassin (Arabic: دير ياسين‎), was an Arab village, lying 1,400 meters to the north of what is now Yad Vashem, which had declared its neutrality during the 1948 Palestine war. In an effort by the Jewish militias to clear the road to Jerusalem, which was being blockaded by Arab forces, Deir Yassin was attacked and emptied of its inhabitants by Irgun forces. [1] The incident, in which between 107 and 120 villagers were killed, became known as the Deir Yassin massacre. The Irgun also suffered 37 wounded and 3 dead during the incident.[2] After the battle, the Irgun forces escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference.

A year following the incident, the neighborhood of Givat Shaul Beth was built partially over the village despite scholarly protests to Ben Gurion.[3] Noam Chomsky reported that some streets were named after units of the Irgun and Palmach forces that conquered the village.[4] In 2008 however, streets in the former Deir Yassin area do not bear these names.[5]

In 1951, construction of the Kfar Shaul mental hospital began on the site of the village itself.[6] In 1980, the remaining ruins were bulldozed to make way for another Jewish neighborhood. The village cemetery was later bulldozed to build a highway to a new Jewish settlement.[7]

1/2

 

[Xarog]

2/2

Which leads to :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war

Arab villages

Villages are arranged according to the pre-1948 British Mandate subdistrict they were situated in. The list does not include Arab districts of mixed cities which were partly or wholly depopulated, among them Haifa, Lod, Ramla, Safad, Ashdod (Isdud), Ashkelon (Majdal), Tiberias and Bet She'an (Beisan), which generally had majority Arab populations before the war. 422 villages are listed.

[edit] District of Acre

* al-Amqa
* Arab al-Samniyya
* al-Bassa
* al-Birwa
* al-Damun
* Dayr al-Qassi
* al-Ghabisiyya
* Iqrit
* Iribbin, Khirbat
* Jiddin, Khirbat



* al-Kabri
* Kafr Bir'im
* Kafr 'Inan
* Kuwaykat
* al-Manshiyya
* al-Mansura
* Mi'ar
* al-Nabi Rubin
* al-Nahr
* al-Ruways



* Suhmata
* al-Sumayriyya
* Suruh
* al-Tall
* Tarbikha
* Umm al-Faraj
* al-Zeeb

[edit] District of Baysan

* Arab al-'Arida
* Arab al-Bawati
* Arab al-Safa
* al-Ashrafiyya
* al-Bira
* Danna
* Farwana
* al-Fatur
* al-Ghazzawiyya
* al-Hamidiyya



* al-Hamra
* Jabbul
* Kafra
* Kawkab al-Hawa
* al-Khunayzir
* Masil al-Jizl
* al-Murassas
* Qumya
* al-Sakhina
* al-Samiriyya



* Sirin
* Tall al-Shawk
* al-Taqa, Khirbat
* al-Tira
* Umm 'Ajra
* Umm Sabuna, Khirbat
* Yubla
* Zab'a
* al-Zawiya, Khirbat

[edit] District of Beersheba

* al-Imara
* al-Jammama
* al-Khalasa

[edit] District of Gaza

* Arab Suqrir
* Barbara
* Barqa
* al-Batani al-Gharbi
* al-Batani al-Sharqi
* Beit Daras
* Bayt 'Affa
* Bayt Jirja
* Bayt Tima
* Bil'in
* Burayr
* Dayr Sunayd
* Dimra
* al-Faluja
* Hamama



* Hatta
* Hiribya
* Huj
* Hulayqat
* Ibdis
* Iraq al-Manshiyya
* Iraq Suwaydan
* Isdud
* al-Jaladiyya
* al-Jiyya
* Julis
* al-Jura
* Jusayr
* Karatiyya
* Kawfakha



* Kawkaba
* al-Khisas
* al-Masmiyya al-Kabira
* al-Masmiyya al-Saghira
* al-Muharraqa
* Najd
* Ni'ilya
* Qastina
* al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya
* al-Sawafir al-Shamaliyya
* al-Sawafir al-Sharqiyya
* Simsim
* Summil
* Tall al-Turmus
* Yasur

[edit] District of Haifa

* Abu Shusha
* Abu Zurayq
* Arab al-Fuqara
* Arab al-Nufay'at
* Arab Zahrat al-Dumayri
* Ayn Ghazal
* Ayn Hawd
* Balad al-Shaykh
* Barrat Qisarya
* Burayka
* al-Burj, Khirbat
* al-Butaymat
* Daliyat al-Rawha'
* al-Dumun, Khirbat
* al-Ghubayya al-Fawqa
* al-Ghubayya al-Tahta
* Hawsha



* Ijzim
* Jaba'
* al-Jalama
* Kabara
* al-Kafrayn
* Kafr Lam
* al-Kasayir, Khirbat
* Khubbayza
* Lid, Khirbat
* al-Manara, Khirbat
* al-Mansi
* al-Mansura, Khirbat
* al-Mazar
* al-Naghnaghiyya
* Qannir
* Qira
* Qisarya
* Qumbaza, Khirbat



* al-Rihaniyya
* Sabbarin
* al-Sarafand
* al-Sarkas, Khirbat
* Sa'sa', Khirbat
* al-Sawamir
* al-Shuna, Khirbat
* al-Sindiyana
* al-Tantura
* al-Tira
* Umm al-Shawf
* Umm al-Zinat
* Wa'arat al-Sarris
* Wadi Ara (village)
* Yajur

[edit] District of Hebron

* Ajjur
* Barqusya
* Bayt Jibrin
* Bayt Nattif
* al-Dawayima
* Dayr al-Dubban



* Dayr Nakhkhas
* Kudna
* Mughallis
* al-Qris Horkins
* al-Qubayba
* Ra'na



* Tall al-Safi
* Umm Burj, Khirbat
* az-Zakariyya
* Zayta

[edit] District of Jaffa

* al-'Abbasiyya
* Abu Kishk
* Bayt Dajan
* Biyar 'Adas
* Fajja
* al-Haram
* Ijlil al-Qibliyya
* Ijlil al-Shamaliyya



* al-Jammasin al-Gharbi
* al-Jammasin al-Sharqi
* Jarisha
* Kafr 'Ana
* al-Khayriyya
* al-Mas'udiyya
* al-Mirr
* al-Muwaylih



* Rantiya
* al-Safiriyya
* Salama
* Saqiya
* al-Sawalima
* al-Shaykh Muwannis
* Yazur

[edit] District of Jerusalem

* Allar
* Aqqur
* Artuf
* Bayt 'Itab
* Bayt Mahsir
* Bayt Naqquba
* Bayt Thul
* Bayt Umm al-Mays
* al-Burayj
* Colonia
* Dayr Aban
* Dayr 'Amr
* Dayr al-Hawa



* Dayr Rafat
* Dayr al-Shaykh
* Deir Yassin
* Ein Karim
* Ishwa
* Islin
* Ism Allah, Khirbat
* Jarash
* al-Jura
* Kasla
* al-Lawz, Khirbat
* Lifta
* al-Maliha
* Nitaf



* al-Qabu
* al-Qastal
* Ras Abu 'Ammar
* Sar'a
* Saris
* Sataf
* Sheikh Badr
* Suba
* Sufla
* al-Tannur, Khirbat
* al-'Umur, Khirbat
* al-Walaja

[edit] District of Jenin

* Ayn al-Mansi
* al-Jawfa, Khirbat
* al-Lajjun
* al-Mazar
* Nuris
* Zir'in

[edit] District of Nazareth

* Indur
* Ma'lul
* al-Mujaydil
* Saffuriyya
* al-Subeih

[edit] District of Ramla

* Abu al-Fadl
* Abu Shusha
* Ajanjul
* Aqir
* Barfiliya
* al-Barriyya
* Bash****
* Bayt Far, Khirbat
* Bayt Jiz
* Bayt Nabala
* Bayt Shanna
* Bayt Susin
* Bir Ma'in
* Bir Salim
* al-Burj
* al-Buwayra, Khirbat
* Daniyal
* Dayr Abu Salama
* Dayr Ayyub
* Dayr Muhaysin



* Dayr Tarif
* al-Duhayriyya, Khirbat
* al-Haditha
* Idnibba
* Innaba
* Jilya
* Jimzu
* Kharruba
* al-Khayma
* Khulda
* al-Kunayyisa
* al-Latrun
* al-Maghar
* Majdal Yaba
* al-Mansura, Ramla
* al-Mukhayzin
* al-Muzayri'a
* al-Na'ani
* Nabi Rubin
* Qatra



* Qazaza
* al-Qubab
* al-Qubayba
* Qula
* Sajad
* Salbit
* Sarafand al-'Amar
* Sarafand al-Kharab
* Saydun
* Shahma
* Shilta
* al-Tina
* al-Tira
* Umm Kalkha
* Wadi Hunayn
* Yibna
* Zakariyya, Khirbat
* Zarnuqa

[edit] District of Safad

* Abil al-Qamh
* al-'Abisiyya
* Alma
* Ammuqa
* Arab al-Shamalina
* Arab al-Zubayd
* Ayn al-Zaytun
* Baysamun
* Biriyya
* al-Butayha
* al-Buwayziyya
* Dallata
* al-Dawwara
* Dayshum
* al-Dirbashiyya
* al-Dirdara
* Fara
* al-Farradiyya
* Fir'im
* Ghabbatiyya
* Ghuraba
* al-Hamra'
* Harrawi
* Hunin
* al-Husayniyya
* Jahula



* al-Ja'una
* Jubb Yusuf
* Kafr Bir'im
* al-Khalisa
* Khan al-Duwayr
* Karraza, Khirbat
* al-Khisas
* Khiyam al-Walid
* Kirad al-Baqqara
* Kirad al-Ghannama
* Lazzaza
* Madahil
* al-Malikiyya
* Mallaha
* al-Manshiyya
* al-Mansura, Safad
* Mansurat al-Khayt
* Marus
* Mirun
* al-Muftakhira
* Mughr al-Khayt
* al-Muntar, Khirbat
* al-Nabi Yusha'
* al-Na'ima
* Qabba'a
* Qadas



* Qaddita
* Qaytiyya
* al-Qudayriyya
* al-Ras al-Ahmar
* Sabalan
* Safsaf
* Saliha
* al-Salihiyya
* al-Sammu'i
* al-Sanbariyya
* Sa'sa'
* al-Shawka al-Tahta
* al-Shuna
* Taytaba
* Tulayl
* al-'Ulmaniyya
* al-'Urayfiyya
* al-Wayziyya
* Yarda
* al-Zahiriyya al-Tahta
* al-Zanghariyya
* al-Zawiya
* al-Zuq al-Fawqani
* al-Zuq al-Tahtani

[edit] District of Tiberias

* Awlam
* al-Dalhamiyya
* Ghuwayr Abu Shusha
* Hadatha
* al-Hamma
* Hittin
* Kafr Sabt
* Lubya
* Ma'dhar



* al-Majdal
* al-Manara
* al-Manshiyya
* al-Mansura, Tiberias
* Nasir al-Din
* Nimrin
* al-Nuqayb
* Samakh
* al-Samakiyya



* al-Samra
* al-Shajara
* al-Tabigha
* al-'Ubaydiyya
* al-Wa'ra al-Sawda', Khirbat
* Yaquq

[edit] District of Tulkarm

* Bayt Lid, Khirbat
* Bayyarat Hannun
* Fardisya
* Ghabat Kafr Sur
* al-Jalama
* Kafr Saba



* al-Majdal, Khirbat
* al-Manshiyya
* Miska
* Qaqun
* Raml Zayta
* Tabsur



* Umm Khalid
* Wadi al-Hawarith
* Wadi Qabbani
* al-Zababida, Khirbat
* Zalafa, Khirbat

But no, I'm sure there was no ethnic cleansing!

 

[BBSA]

ROFL. Take the plank out of your own eye before you complain about someone else's splinters.

Please show me one post where I was responsible for a Personal Attack?

 

[Xarog]

Please show me one post where I was responsible for a Personal Attack?

Every post you have made with the sig you currently have.

 

[BBSA]

Otherwise known as historical revisionism. It's not like the Israeli government has any motives to lie about their war crimes, is it? Nonono, I'm sure the Israeli government would never do any such thing if they were in fact guilty!

Nonsense, if you read the quote you would have seen it was because Israel opened up part of its archives in the 1980s for investigation by historians.

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

 

[daveza]

Every post you have made with the sig you currently have.

You have to give Xarog an extra point on this one

That said Xarog has a rather conceited though tongue-in-cheek one himself.

 

[BBSA]

Every post you have made with the sig you currently have.

LOL.... I'm praising you.

 

[JHatman]

I think its also important not to confused ethnic cleansing with war-time forced removal. Many millions of Germans and Italians during WWII found themselves with faced with a choice of either having to leave the UK, US etc of or face imprisonment for the duration of the war, regardless of whether they agreed with the war or not.

Something to keep in mind.

 

[daveza]

At the end of the day whether it's called ethnic cleansing or forced removal the result is that the people are gone.