The Proteas - Our Team!

You're reading way too much into this honestly. If you read my comment as simple as it is you will have realised that there's no shifting of goal posts (or the oft abused resignation - trolling), just basic dialogue. But I love the fact that a World Cup selected batsmen is being defended about the odds of him picking up a duck again. The likelihood of him picking up a ton/half-century in those four innings is not what you're willing to bet on. That may have escaped your notice, but it's quite telling. I feel embarrassed for the player. Absolutely embarrassed for him&those who selected him. :D

Regarding world cup squad, he would not have been a guaranteed selection for me. But then you would have to think who else you would have picked:

1) MvW - also a bit from left field. Although he might be a better bet for big games with his experience and knowledge of the game, he does not play for the SA squad nearly enough and has not performed well up until the team was announced (granted it was T20 and before that he played the Momentum Cup like a boss). Also will not play for much longer so no use in moulding him. QdK is there to keep so his keeping is irrelevant. That said, he is a fighter and a team player.
2) Stiaan van Zyl - not a bad choice given he has shown he can handle himself in the national side during the tests. Also can bowl. Better option than behardien. He does better in the longer format though.
3) Dean Elgar. For purposes of World Cup he is not a bad choice, he is a much better player than what people give him credit for. Handy spinner too who can share with JP if we want 4 seamers.
4) other newcomers there are a few but my issue with Rilee is not ability, but rather concentration etc because the moment is still a bit big for him. So you are going to risk exactly the same by putting any other newcomer in for the WC such as Reeza, Second or whoever. Rilee then is your best bet because he is going to get better with every game. I still feel that experience should be the criteria for selection in borderline choices.
Who else? What happened to Ingram?
 
Noted. True.

You should have stopped there instead of waffling on presenting more of your opinion as fact. All players play for the team and the SA team's best chance of getting the most out of AB's talent is to have him bat at 4-5. Your own view of him moving up the order to prove to you how great he is, is misguided at best.

Is anyone else in the world clamouring for AB to open? So calm down...stop belittling achievements to push your own agenda.
 
During the 2007 world cup AB actually opened the batting.
Group A scores:
Ned 0(2)
NZ 62(45)
AUS 92(70)
Super 8 scores:
SL 0(5)
IRE 0(3)
BANG 15(39)
WI 146(130)
NZ 0(6)
Semi final:
AUS 15(34)

once again, "when the going gets tough, the runs dry up"
 
Regarding world cup squad, he would not have been a guaranteed selection for me. But then you would have to think who else you would have picked:

1) MvW - also a bit from left field. Although he might be a better bet for big games with his experience and knowledge of the game, he does not play for the SA squad nearly enough and has not performed well up until the team was announced (granted it was T20 and before that he played the Momentum Cup like a boss). Also will not play for much longer so no use in moulding him. QdK is there to keep so his keeping is irrelevant. That said, he is a fighter and a team player.
2) Stiaan van Zyl - not a bad choice given he has shown he can handle himself in the national side during the tests. Also can bowl. Better option than behardien. He does better in the longer format though.
3) Dean Elgar. For purposes of World Cup he is not a bad choice, he is a much better player than what people give him credit for. Handy spinner too who can share with JP if we want 4 seamers.
4) other newcomers there are a few but my issue with Rilee is not ability, but rather concentration etc because the moment is still a bit big for him. So you are going to risk exactly the same by putting any other newcomer in for the WC such as Reeza, Second or whoever. Rilee then is your best bet because he is going to get better with every game. I still feel that experience should be the criteria for selection in borderline choices.
Who else? What happened to Ingram?

Neither van Zyl nor Elgar have the shots to bat at number 6/7 in an odi side. Ingram was out of form for a long time, regained somewhat now but has signed a kolpak deal so not available.

MVW same issue as we saw in the previous world cup when he was selected can't bat at number 7 in an odi team. Behardien and Rillee were the best choices out of those available at the current time imho.
 
During the 2007 world cup AB actually opened the batting.
Group A scores:
Ned 0(2)
NZ 62(45)
AUS 92(70)
Super 8 scores:
SL 0(5)
IRE 0(3)
BANG 15(39)
WI 146(130)
NZ 0(6)
Semi final:
AUS 15(34)

once again, "when the going gets tough, the runs dry up"

The AB of the past few years is a vastly improved batsmen.
 
Too much emphasis is put on the world cup. Too much pressure for the players. Disproportionate for a 6 week long tournament held every 4 years. Ridiculous that we would judge a player based on 2 or 3 performances at said world cup and not on what he has done in the 4 years between world cups.
 
Derek: "Can we also have Tim Noakes the famous SA sports scientist in that starting X!?"

Trundler: "But you've got to be careful, folks, that a team with Stokes, Foakes and Woakes isn't going to be one that chokes."
Banter in ongoing TriSeries 4th match ENG vs AUS.
 
The AB of the past few years is a vastly improved batsmen.
Name one batsmen over that period who dropped from opening to batting lower down the order who hasn't improved their batting and apperared absolutely world class? Even Mike Hussey who did the same was even touted as being the best ever Australian batsman, but of course some are always quick to point out that "Huss failed opening".

Before that Bhevan, Dhoni, Andy Flower etc all looked world class batting there (4-6). Luke Ronchi couldn't cut it batting 1-3 for NZ(&AUS) but he's looked menacing at #7 for NZ. Averages 54 for them in ODIs whereas his career ODI average is 36/37.

James Faulkner for crying out loud averages 45+ batting 6-8 for AUS. And that's not because of the Not Outs. It's purely because of consistent batting from these guys.

Obviously a player of AB's class is bound to be higher than them. He's done ok at #3 even before that crazy 149 recently, so nothing suggests he would not have excelled if he continued there. However, as an opener he's a 30odd average player. 40 odd innings is enough for us to take that as fact. He's not good enough there. That's th enotion he must dispel. Hussey was happy to be written off as such. Is AB?

I just think it's downright silly for people to argue that keeping+batting, or batting+captaining, or keeping+batting+captaining is too difficult for him because.

Some throw the team balance excuse, but I haven't seen that make a 38 yr old Sanga bat lower, or discouraged BMac from opening for NZ, since both sides have been much weaker and their sides more imbalanced over the years.

I know what anyone would say if they were asked who would you prefer to open with Amla - AB or MvW/QdK/RR; and at first drop AB/Faf. They would say AB all the time. So why isn't it happening? Kallis&Smith went. Absolutely no excuse. The fact that he won't do it even for an IPL franchise is even more damning!

Mahela is fighting with the selectors to let him open. BMac does the same with NZ. Sachin opened in ODIs despite batting lower in Tests. Kohli wants to bat at 3 but Dhoni&the selectors won't let him. AB has never said he wants to bat in the top 3. If he did we all know he would have had his way because he's flip-flopped about when&where he keeps/bats/captains over the last 3-4 years. He doesn't because he knows his limitations.

He's played so many matches, but overall already he looks a level or two below the class of Kohli&Amla in ODIs statistically. I'm of the thinking that AB should not put himself in a position where at the end of his career, any stats pulled will drag up certain players who we all believe shoud be lesser players and line them up next to him as peers. And some of them will have prettier&superior stats.

Only way for him to separate himself from that is bat higher, where it's tougher. Just look at how Steve Smith is going for AUS at #3. And would have believed he's got the technique to do well there? At every opportunity he captaincs, he uses his authority to bat higher.
 
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Too much emphasis is put on the world cup. Too much pressure for the players. Disproportionate for a 6 week long tournament held every 4 years. Ridiculous that we would judge a player based on 2 or 3 performances at said world cup and not on what he has done in the 4 years between world cups.

I agree in essence with what you've said. But, many sports are subject to world cups to determine the best team. It is something we have to live with.

Enjoy it for the spectacle regardless of how our team performs. We'll get it right sometime.
 
Name one batsmen over that period who dropped from opening to batting lower down the order who hasn't improved their batting and apperared absolutely world class? Even Mike Hussey who did the same was even touted as being the best ever Australian batsman, but of course some are always quick to point out that "Huss failed opening".

Before that Bhevan, Dhoni, Andy Flower etc all looked world class batting there (4-6). Luke Ronchi couldn't cut it batting 1-3 for NZ(&AUS) but he's looked menacing at #7 for NZ. Averages 54 for them in ODIs whereas his career ODI average is 36/37.

James Faulkner for crying out loud averages 45+ batting 6-8 for AUS. And that's not because of the Not Outs. It's purely because of consistent batting from these guys.

Obviously a player of AB's class is bound to be higher than them. He's done ok at #3 even before that crazy 149 recently, so nothing suggests he would not have excelled if he continued there. However, as an opener he's a 30odd average player. 40 odd innings is enough for us to take that as fact. He's not good enough there. That's th enotion he must dispel. Hussey was happy to be written off as such. Is AB?

I just think it's downright silly for people to argue that keeping+batting, or batting+captaining, or keeping+batting+captaining is too difficult for him because.

Some throw the team balance excuse, but I haven't seen that make a 38 yr old Sanga bat lower, or discouraged BMac from opening for NZ, since both sides have been much weaker and their sides more imbalanced over the years.

I know what anyone would say if they were asked who would you prefer to open with Amla - AB or MvW/QdK/RR; and at first drop AB/Faf. They would say AB all the time. So why isn't it happening? Kallis&Smith went. Absolutely no excuse. The fact that he won't do it even for an IPL franchise is even more damning!

Mahela is fighting with the selectors to let him open. BMac does the same with NZ. Sachin opened in ODIs despite batting lower in Tests. Kohli wants to bat at 3 but Dhoni&the selectors won't let him. AB has never said he wants to bat in the top 3. If he did we all know he would have had his way because he's flip-flopped about when&where he keeps/bats/captains over the last 3-4 years. He doesn't because he knows his limitations.

He's played so many matches, but overall already he looks a level or two below the class of Kohli&Amla in ODIs statistically. I'm of the thinking that AB should not put himself in a position where at the end of his career, any stats pulled will drag up certain players who we all believe shoud be lesser players and line them up next to him as peers. And some of them will have prettier&superior stats.

Only way for him to separate himself from that is bat higher, where it's tougher. Just look at how Steve Smith is going for AUS at #3. And would have believed he's got the technique to do well there? At every opportunity he captaincs, he uses his authority to bat higher.

Not sure what you are trying to say/prove??

It seems like you are suggesting AB's stats will be worse when opening and that he only seems good because he bats 4 or 5 and he can only prove himself by opening?

In my opinion he should bat at 4. No need for him to open as we have other guys better suited or rather other guys less suited for batting in the middle. Opening is also not necessarily harder. It takes a certain player to be an effective opener, you have to obviously be able to face the new ball but also to clear the infield and effectively make use of the fielding restrictions. Amla is unique in that his game is suited to bat for longer periods so opening puts less scoring pressure on him. Had we had 2 good other openers 3 would have been ideal for him but Faf is now settled in no3 and Hash is loving opening so why change it?

AB is good in scoring quickly when the game usually slows down when field placings are out and scoring boundaries is hard. Its not that he cant open but rather that there is no one else who can do the job of batting in the middle better than him. Batting after 4 you run the risk of players wasting overs he could have batted.

Must suck to bowl against a team and have to take 2 wickets only for AB to walk to the wicket.
 

I am not going to debate AB's competence with you. Stats do not lie. The fact that he averages between 40 - 60 against the top nations baring England (28.18 against them) tells me all I need to know; the guy gets in and the best bowling attacks in the world battle to get him out. And as per his strike rate, he is mauling the better bowling attacks in the process.

Why must he open when he is averaging 52 runs in the upper middle order? What must he prove?

Adam Gilchrist was devastating as an opener, but you're having a laugh if you think he was better than Ponting, Steve Waugh or even Clarke.
 
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Must suck to bowl against a team and have to take 2 wickets only for AB to walk to the wicket.
Sucks big time! One can only think of the Test side. After getting rid of Smith, Amla walked in at 3. After the next wicekt fell Kallis came along with AB next. I miss that.

However, ODIs are different from Tests. So contrary to your take on my comment, I'm thinking along the lines of this quote of yours above but from a different angle. Just think how defeated a team would feel already with AB&Amla opening. Just like Hayden+Gilly, Mark Waugh+Gilly, Ganguly+Sachin, Viru+Sachin, Jayasuriya+Attapatu, Mahela+Dilshan, Lara+Chanders etc. That list can grow longer.

At a glace, QdK&Amla have done very well. But remove Zimbabwe, cashing in on a docile India attack, it's been a poor opening partnership. All the more reason why it's arguably one of the most successful partnership ever but strieks nowhere near the fear of the great international opening partnerships. For the Proteas Boeta&Smith are probably more menacing, never mind Smith+Gibbs.

I say AB must open with Amla. Later JP&Co can do the job in the middle with an even stronger foundation to work with.

Even you must admit that AB is the best person to exploit those mandatory 10 overs batting powerplay. Rules have changed remember.
 
Official ICC 2015 CWC thread

It seems like you are suggesting AB's stats will be worse when opening and that he only seems good because he bats 4 or 5 and he can only prove himself by opening?

The cricketing world is awash with batsman who never proved themselves by not opening, Graeme Pollock, Ricky Ponting, Jacque Kallis, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Kumar Sangakkara, Brian Lara... they accomplished nothing in their careers other than to successfully avoid opening the batting so as to fool the cricketing world into thinking they were better than they really were.

There's one other player who managed it too, but I can't remember his name, such was the insignificance of his contribution to the cricketing world, on account of never having opened the batting!! Oh yes, I remember now, Sir Don Bradman!! Wonder why they made him a sir?? Odd...

Anyway...

:wtf:
 
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The cricketing world is awash with batsman who never proved themselves by not opening, Graeme Pollock, Ricky Ponting, Jacque Kallis, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Kumar Sangakkara, Brian Lara... they accomplished nothing in their careers other than to successfully avoid opening the batting so as to fool the cricketing world into thinking they were better than they really were.

There's one other player who managed it too, but I can't remember his name, such was the insignificance of his contribution to the cricketing world, on account of never having opened the batting!! Oh yes, I remember now, Sir Don Bradman!! Wonder why they made him a sir?? Odd...

Anyway...

:wtf:

:D

I have no doubt that AB would be the best opener too. But in ODI's he has enough time to do damage coming in at 4. Why risk him going out to a ball seaming of a crack in the first few overs? Openers have a selfless job to do but it does not mean they have tje hardest job or need to be the best. Some prefer batting there.

On related news, I see Elgar got 98 off 45 just now. Still think he might be a good number 6 or 7. Bowls too.
 
The cricketing world is awash with batsman who never proved themselves by not opening, Graeme Pollock, Ricky Ponting, Jacque Kallis, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Kumar Sangakkara, Brian Lara... they accomplished nothing in their careers other than to successfully avoid opening the batting so as to fool the cricketing world into thinking they were better than they really were.

There's one other player who managed it too, but I can't remember his name, such was the insignificance of his contribution to the cricketing world, on account of never having opened the batting!! Oh yes, I remember now, Sir Don Bradman!! Wonder why they made him a sir?? Odd...

Anyway...

:wtf:
You didn't read above. Gulf in class between qualiy of bowlers they faced compared to what AB faces is a joke! So

By the way, Lara, Sachin&Chanderpaul opened in ODIs, successfully too! As we all know Bradman aside, Ponting, Dravid&Sanga were 3 for the bulk of their careers - opening later in their careers in ODIs, also very successful. Very acceptable if you read what I said initially.

Four and below in ODIs you can't really be taken seriously when compared with the greats. Even more so these days when it free for all. That's the gist of my argument. Many agree with it. I've got plenty of reputable quotes if you like. ;)
 
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