The Rugby Thread - Part Deux

[lexity]

Why would you think that?

I think it's the complete opposite.

If you don't perform, you are gone. Doesn't matter who you are.

Or if your personality is one that compromises the team dynamic, you won't be considered for selection. Rassie doesn't pick "i" specialists.

Look how quickly he has pulled players from a test if they're not performing, Libbok against England in the RWC quarter finals case in point...

Willie le Roux and Faf, double world cup winners both cut from the extended squad.

Picking players on being double-WC winners is a highly questionable selection strategy, imo.

Which player/s would you say are under performing yet consistently picked? Out of loyalty/cronyism?

I singled out le Roux because, from memory, Rassie said he would get to his 100th cap for the boks well before it happened.

I'm perhaps being a bit too polite when I say it's just a hunch.

He definitely feels a loyalty thing, does Rassie.

 

[sand_man]

I think Rassie has a bit of a weak spot for appointment/selection out of loyalty/cronyism.

Just a hunch.

p.s. Players reaching milestone stats is a bit of a give-away.... like le Roux. He should have given way to new blood long before he did.

What is the cap tally of Kriel, currently? Are we going to see it with him, too?

We're thin at 15. Who's challenging Willie for the 15 jersey? Fassi? I think many would take their chances with Willie. If there was a clear cut bolter at 15 who wasn't getting game time, you may have a point.

Jesse is on 90 caps. Why would any coach in their right mind drop him? Another area where we are painfully thin btw at centre (12/13)... Jesse and DDA is widely regarded as one of the worlds best centre pairings...

 

[lexity]

Jesse is on 90 caps. Why would any coach in their right mind drop him?

You're making my point for me.

I'll bet the AB's would be licking their chops at the sound of this talk.

Putting one's experience into a performance is a different skill altogether. Just because he has the experience doesn't necessarily mean he can deliver on it.

In my view players should be picked on current/recent form.

 

[sand_man]

Picking players on being double-WC winners is a highly questionable selection strategy, imo.


I singled out le Roux because, from memory, Rassie said he would get to his 100th cap for the boks well before it happened.

I'm perhaps being a bit too polite when I say it's just a hunch.

He definitely feels a loyalty thing, does Rassie.

Just one of many considerations (double wc winner). This thing called experience. You can't buy it....

Not sure why you fixated on Wille. 100th cap well before it happened? So like when he was on cap 61? or cap 98? Pretty obvious when you 1 of 3 possible 15's and you have a test season of 13 tests with 2 home tests against Italy and 1 against Georgia, you're going to get your 100th cap.

His loyalty is to the country and the teams success. He has consistently done what is best for both. So yes, your hunch is correct.

 

[sand_man]

You're making my point for me.

I'll bet the AB's would be licking their chops at the sound of this talk.

Putting one's experience into a performance is a different skill altogether. Just because he has the experience doesn't necessarily mean he can deliver on it.

In my view players should be picked on current/recent form.

He is on 90 caps (answered cause you asked).

Why would you drop him? IE based on his performances in the last run of 11 tests unbeaten, why would you drop him?

A big part of why we conceded 5 tries on Saturday was because the midfield defensive axis that has worked so well for us for so long was disrupted with Jesse going to wing and DDA to 13... Surely that's not lost on you?

 

[lexity]

Just one of many considerations (double wc winner). This thing called experience. You can't buy it....

Not sure why you fixated on Wille. 100th cap well before it happened? So like when he was on cap 61? or cap 98? Pretty obvious when you 1 of 3 possible 15's and you have a test season of 13 tests with 2 home tests against Italy and 1 against Georgia, you're going to get your 100th cap.

His loyalty is to the country and the teams success. He has consistently done what is best for both. So yes, your hunch is correct.

Loyalty to core values is what counts more than to a top-heavy, astro-turf country/government.

But, as I said... in sport at this level, form should count more than either. Much more. Anyway, how can you be loyal to a divided people's set of core values? That kind of loyalty is highly questionable.

 

[sand_man]

In my view players should be picked on current/recent form.

On current form Jesse is our best 13. Who you picking to replace him?

 

[lexity]

He is on 90 caps (answered cause you asked).

Why would you drop him? IE based on his performances in the last run of 11 tests unbeaten, why would you drop him?

A big part of why we conceded 5 tries on Saturday was because the midfield defensive axis that has worked so well for us for so long was disrupted with Jesse going to wing and DDA to 13... Surely that's not lost on you?

I'm not saying he's useless.

Far from it. But selection criteria should not be based on non-recent form. In my opinion, Jesse is overrated. The fact you reference his caps stating any coach would be mad to drop him on the strength of that number is confirmation of my point.

 

[lexity]

On current form Jesse is our best 13. Who you picking to replace him?

He may or may be the best, right now. I honestly don't know.

But we have established and are in agreement on how he is being/has been selected. That should be enough cause for concern.

Imagine someone as good but on fewer caps being passed over perpetually due to Jessie's greater cap-tally? What does that do to his motivation to compete for that position?

Big mistake, in selection strategy if you ask me.

 

[sand_man]

I'm not saying he's useless.

Far from it. But selection criteria should not be based on non-recent form. In my opinion, Jesse is overrated. The fact you reference his caps stating any coach would be mad to drop him on the strength of that number is confirmation of my point.

I only mentioned his number of caps cause you asked. Geesus!!!

And you asked because you insinuating Rassie will pick him, regardless of form, until he gets to 100 caps!! Because your hunch of cronyism/loyalty...

Have you heard the cliche often used in a sporting context, 'form is temporary, class is permanent'? What do you think it means?

I'll ask again, WHO YOU PICKING AT 13?

 

[Nerfherder]

Has anyone else noticed that we do really bad in games where players get their 100th cap ?

i'm not sure if its a curse or just the distraction of the event but it seems we never perform in those games.

I actually looked up the stats and its seems I'm mistaken, it's about 50/50 :
BUT, of the ones we won, they were mostly easy games...

Springbok Centurions and 100th Test Results
Percy Montgomery (102 total caps)100th Test Result: Lost 19-0 vs New Zealand (Cape Town, 16 August 2008)
John Smit (111 total caps)100th Test Result: Lost 29-22 vs New Zealand (Soweto, 23 August 2010)
Victor Matfield (127 total caps)100th Test Result: Won 44-31 vs Australia (Pretoria, 28 August 2010)
Bryan Habana (124 total caps)100th Test Result: Lost 24-23 vs Australia (Perth, 6 September 2014)
Jean de Villiers (109 total caps)100th Test Result: Lost 14-10 vs New Zealand (Wellington, 13 September 2014)
Tendai "Beast" Mtawarira (117 total caps)100th Test Result: Won 23-12 vs England (Bloemfontein, 16 June 2018)
Eben Etzebeth (143 total caps)100th Test Result: Won 30-14 vs Wales (Cape Town, 16 July 2022)
Willie le Roux (101+ total caps)100th Test Result: Won 45-0 vs Italy (Gqeberha, 12 July 2025)
Siya Kolisi (104 total caps)100th Test Result: Won 32-17 vs France (Paris, 8 November 2025)
Damian de Allende (100 total caps)100th Test Result: Lost 33-16 vs New Zealand (Johannesburg, 22 August 2026)

It's a weird metric but I do have these weird memories of the Siya and Eben games being terrible, perhaps it was more that they had to come off.

 

[Werner1975]

Although it's admirable that Rassie is trying to shoulder blame for last Saturday's loss to shield his players, we shouldn't forget that it were the players that caused the 23 turnovers in the shape of handling/unforced errors. Everyone should take accountability for the loss.
Happy that Siya is back in the team. Just hope that he doesn't have too much rust. We gotta fire on all cylinders in the next test.

 

[lexity]

I only mentioned his number of caps cause you asked. Geesus!!!

And you asked because you insinuating Rassie will pick him, regardless of form, until he gets to 100 caps!! Because your hunch of cronyism/loyalty...

Have you heard the cliche often used in a sporting context, 'form is temporary, class is permanent'? What do you think it means?

It means you have a soft spot for cronyism.

I'll ask again, WHO YOU PICKING AT 13?

No, it's not relevant given the point I made about motivation to compete for position on recent form/merit alone.

Even if Jesse is currently better, which I'm not saying he is, but even if he is that's taking a snapshot over a video clip of what it means to allow yourself to get caught up in historical loyalties and cronyism.

 

[lexity]

Has anyone else noticed that we do really bad in games where players get their 100th cap ?

 

[sand_man]

He may or may be the best, right now. I honestly don't know.

But we have established and are in agreement on how he is being/has been selected. That should be enough cause for concern.

Imagine someone as good but on fewer caps being passed over perpetually due to Jessie's greater cap-tally? What does that do to his motivation to compete for that position?

Big mistake, in selection strategy if you ask me.

And this is the most fascinating and damning aspect of your entire argument, 'Imagine someone as good but on fewer caps being passed over perpetually due to Jessie's greater cap-tally? What does that do to his motivation to compete for that position'?

Rassie is world renowned for his selection policies which are regarded as highly experimental and heavily geared towards building squad depth, blooding new talent, building test experience, with future seasons and rugby world cup success the key driver.

Canan Moodie is next in line at 13. Hasn't reached the same heights since returning from injury and currently injured again (hamstring)...

 

[lexity]

And this is the most fascinating and damning aspect of your entire argument, 'Imagine someone as good but on fewer caps being passed over perpetually due to Jessie's greater cap-tally? What does that do to his motivation to compete for that position'?

Rassie is world renowned for his selection policies which are regarded as highly experimental and heavily geared towards building squad depth, blooding new talent, building test experience, with future seasons and rugby world cup success the key driver.

Canan Moodie is next in line at 13. Hasn't reached the same heights since returning from injury and currently injured again (hamstring)...

I'll bet you anything you like Jessie himself would be miles better without using cap tally as cement.

 

[lexity]

Jessie would make a world-class body builder.

 

[sand_man]

It means you have a soft spot for cronyism.


No, it's not relevant given the point I made about motivation to compete for position on recent form/merit alone.

Even if Jesse is currently better, which I'm not saying he is, but even if he is that's taking a snapshot over a video clip of what it means to allow yourself to get caught up in historical loyalties and cronyism.

So, who you selecting to replace Jesse is not relevant? Haha, you are funny.... If you were coach we would take the field without a 13, cause the coach is sticking to his "core values", won't be subjected to accusations of cronyism or unearned loyalty.

Jesse is currently the best 13 in SA. Whether you believe it or not. It's actually not even close which is a far greater reason for concern than your hunches. We have very little depth at 12, 13 and 15... look how fast our defensive structures were compromised with that centre pairing disruption...

 

[lexity]

We have very little depth at 12, 13 and 15

I never said drop him immediately I just made a case for poor selection strategy, using Willie and Jesse as examples.

The question of why 'we have so little depth' appears to have passed you by.

I'm suggesting this particular aspect may have something to do with it. I suspect it does. I could be wrong. I know that.

Anyway talking past each other is probably the least interesting way to spend one's time on the internet, so let's leave it there for now and perhaps pick it up again at some other time when we've seen more.

 

[sand_man]

I'll bet you anything you like Jessie himself would be miles better without using cap tally as cement.

I bet you anything you don't even watch rugby.

You can't say whether Jesse is the best 13 in SA or not but couldn't name a replacement.

So who were you comparing him with?