The SA Politics Thread Part 6

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Kosmik said:
Nah, I think what most folks use the term cadre deployment for is when a person is just shuffled into a post or being a "yes man" or "party line" etc. If the person is competent and can actually do the job without corruption etc, then that's not really what I see as cadre. Cadre to me is non merit or merit abused.
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That's the problem with lack of a principled position, it's easy to manouvre when it's convenient.

Would you agree with NDZ here?

www.citizen.co.za

DA slams NDZ's 'toxic' cadre deployment views | The Citizen

In a statement, the party said it believed that Dlamini-Zuma has 'misdiagnosed the ailment, and that her prescription is toxic'.
www.citizen.co.za www.citizen.co.za
 
Kosmik said:
11/30 doesn't seem unreasonable.

ANC - 39.8% , DA 21.8% , that's 1/3 and 2/3 roughly.

Of course if you split the rest amongst GNU, it gets less for both. Hence that spreadsheet earlier which takes into account proportions of the GNU.
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That closes the door on other parties who should get a position due to their share...

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TheChamp said:
That's the problem with lack of a principled position, it's easy to manouvre when it's convenient.

Would you agree with NDZ here?

www.citizen.co.za

DA slams NDZ's 'toxic' cadre deployment views | The Citizen

In a statement, the party said it believed that Dlamini-Zuma has 'misdiagnosed the ailment, and that her prescription is toxic'.
www.citizen.co.za www.citizen.co.za
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No I don't because its still focusing on "deploying the right cadre" when it should be about choosing the right candidate.

The DA has said it wants to appoint its own DG, not that the DG will be a deployed cadre.
 
Hush9300 said:
There is context here. The struggle was at first non-violent but when liberation movements were banned militant wings were established cross border. This has been documented numerous times and at this stage it is like flogging a head horse.

Activists were jailed, tortured and murdered without trial notwithstanding the heavy-handed death sentences of others. The Nats even went as far as raiding Lesotho to kill some. The bombings etc were seen as retaliatory attacks and not terror attacks, except for the government of course who deemed them acts of terrorism. The latter life sentences, instead of death sentences, were due to international pressure and not magnanimity on the part of the Apartheid government.
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Yet, despite all your justifications, innocent civilians we blown to smithereens in restaurants, women and children killed where land mines were planted on gravel farm roads, farm were attacked. That does not sound like retaliation against a government.

The infamous tyre was used against anybody that would not support the ANC. Meanwhile Pedro even had people killed in places Quatro.

That really is not fighting the government of the day, that is pure terrorism however you candy-coat it.
 
TheChamp said:
That's the problem with lack of a principled position, it's easy to manouvre when it's convenient.

Would you agree with NDZ here?

www.citizen.co.za

DA slams NDZ's 'toxic' cadre deployment views | The Citizen

In a statement, the party said it believed that Dlamini-Zuma has 'misdiagnosed the ailment, and that her prescription is toxic'.
www.citizen.co.za www.citizen.co.za
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This is the kicker though

“Cadres are in fact responsible for the decline of municipalities, and their “deployment” should be abolished altogether. The policy of cadre deployment enjoins African National Congress (ANC) politicians to reserve technical and otherwise non-political jobs in state institutions for ANC members,” said DA MP Cilliers Brink.

Brink said the cadre deployement was also a means of gaining control over society while using public resources to maintain that control.
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Basically DG's should be best fit for job that they can work with , without taking politics into account AT THAT LEVEL.

Think of the police and army, they work that way. You have a minister but there is a single General and he feeds down. They are non-political.
 
ToxicBunny said:
No I don't because its still focusing on "deploying the right cadre" when it should be about choosing the right candidate.

The DA has said it wants to appoint its own DG, not that the DG will be a deployed cadre.
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I think it's just semantics.
 
TheChamp said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1805219245187379530
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so many people in that thread again failing at math ... and pointing out the "DA didn't win the election" while forgetting that the ANC didn't either, else we would not be having these debates at all

and apparently the DA is demanding all the powerful ministries ... if that was true they'd demand the ministry of finance outright, the fact that they are not means this is negotiations and not just throwing of toys with unreasonable demands

of course they are pushing the limits, so is the ANC
 
Hush9300 said:
There is context here. The struggle was at first non-violent but when liberation movements were banned militant wings were established cross border. This has been documented numerous times and at this stage it is like flogging a head horse.

Activists were jailed, tortured and murdered without trial notwithstanding the heavy-handed death sentences of others. The Nats even went as far as raiding Lesotho to kill some. The bombings etc were seen as retaliatory attacks and not terror attacks, except for the government of course who deemed them acts of terrorism. The latter life sentences, instead of death sentences, were due to international pressure and not magnanimity on the part of the Apartheid government.
Click to expand...
Kosmik said:
F*** your context, innocents died.
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Both are true.

ANC/MK did make attacks where civilians ended up dead, although they tried to avoid it most of the time and focus on infrastructure/gov points.

If Apartheid gov didn't try to crush the ANC when they were operating peacefully initially and opened fire on PAC protesters at Sharpeville which was the catalyst... MK would've never been formed. Other units like APLA probably as well. The armed struggle would've never taken place. And even when things got violent, the Apartheid gov used units like Vlakplaas to go the maximum and hunt down ANC okes in Lesotho, Swaziland, Moz, Botswana...
 
PrimeSteak said:
Both are true.

ANC/MK did make attacks where civilians ended up dead, although they tried to avoid it most of the time and focus on infrastructure/gov points.

If Apartheid gov didn't try to crush the ANC when they were operating peacefully initially and opened fire on PAC protesters at Sharpeville which was the catalyst... MK would've never been formed. Other units like APLA probably as well. The armed struggle would've never taken place. And even when things got violent, the Apartheid gov used units like Vlakplaas to go the maximum and hunt down ANC okes in Lesotho, Swaziland, Moz, Botswana...
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I don't think anyone has tried to deny that both sides were evil/wrong/violent.

But its this narrative that Hush was trying to build of "your government" and that side trying to whitewash what "their government" did which is horseshyte.
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1805215028661956701

Ok, which is it now, 10, 11, 12, 13... 25...

I'm still saying this is all a probing attack by DA, to try and achieve their actual goals.

Propose almost unrealistic demands, and be open to haggling. ANC offers below the unreal demands but this is what DA actually wanted to achieve (For example, accepting 8 Cabinet posts instead of 11, which was more than they bargained for).
Show of force by trying to get ANC to dilute small parties' (sub-VF+ in seats) potential powers and their own, otherwise DA walks. (Walking threats were already effective in ANC National to get Lesufi to play along...)
 
Hush9300 said:
The struggle was at first non-violent but when liberation movements were banned militant wings were established cross border. This has been documented numerous times and at this stage it is like flogging a head horse.

Activists were jailed, tortured and murdered without trial notwithstanding the heavy-handed death sentences of others. The Nats even went as far as raiding Lesotho to kill some.
Click to expand...
True.
Hush9300 said:
The bombings etc were seen as retaliatory attacks and not terror attacks, except for the government of course who deemed them acts of terrorism.
Click to expand...
They were acts of terrorism... Actively sabotaging gov institutions and bombing civilian places are terror attacks...

Although ANC/MK did try to minimize civilian casualties as much as they could.
Hush9300 said:
The latter life sentences, instead of death sentences, were due to international pressure and not magnanimity on the part of the Apartheid government.
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Not as much international pressure, but because of democracy negotiations in the late 80s/early 90s.
 
PrimeSteak said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1805215028661956701

Ok, which is it now, 10, 11, 12, 13... 25...

I'm still saying this is all a probing attack by DA, to try and achieve their actual goals.

Propose almost unrealistic demands, and be open to haggling. ANC offers below the unreal demands but this is what DA actually wanted to achieve (For example, accepting 8 Cabinet posts instead of 11, which was more than they bargained for).
Show of force by trying to get ANC to dilute small parties' (sub-VF+ in seats) potential powers and their own, otherwise DA walks. (Walking threats were already effective in ANC National to get Lesufi to play along...)
Click to expand...

It'll be 90 cabinet posts by the end of the day I reckon... just you watch, and the reeing about how the DA is unfair/unreasonable will escalate.
 
PrimeSteak said:
Both are true.

ANC/MK did make attacks where civilians ended up dead, although they tried to avoid it most of the time and focus on infrastructure/gov points.

If Apartheid gov didn't try to crush the ANC when they were operating peacefully initially and opened fire on PAC protesters at Sharpeville which was the catalyst... MK would've never been formed. Other units like APLA probably as well. The armed struggle would've never taken place. And even when things got violent, the Apartheid gov used units like Vlakplaas to go the maximum and hunt down ANC okes in Lesotho, Swaziland, Moz, Botswana...
Click to expand...
A lot of the bombings were in public spaces but let not derail this anymore.

Civilian deaths, on either end, was unnecessary.
 
PrimeSteak said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1805215028661956701

Ok, which is it now, 10, 11, 12, 13... 25...

I'm still saying this is all a probing attack by DA, to try and achieve their actual goals.

Propose almost unrealistic demands, and be open to haggling. ANC offers below the unreal demands but this is what DA actually wanted to achieve (For example, accepting 8 Cabinet posts instead of 11, which was more than they bargained for).
Show of force by trying to get ANC to dilute small parties' (sub-VF+ in seats) potential powers and their own, otherwise DA walks. (Walking threats were already effective in ANC National to get Lesufi to play along...)
Click to expand...
I read the letter differently. It says they're interested in those ministries, no mention of the number of ministers they want. Once the number is decided, they can haggle over which ministries to allocate those numbers to...
 
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