The UCT - Cecil John Rhodes Statue Thread

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JStrike

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ambroseg1 said:
Many evil people have donated land or built structures in the past. Does not make them worthy of honour.
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Most of the richest people have been horrible people. Use their legacies, but you don't necessarily have to celebrate them
 
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thestaggy said:
You'd think students have more important things to focus on than a f#cking statue.



So is it only white students doing that? Taking my experience with UJ in to account, I doubt it. That place looks like it was struck by a nuke after lunch hours and late on a Friday.
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The white privilege thing is BS. That's just lefties from the US pushing that. However venerating a historically divisive figure - in the very least - is something else. That's not to say the statue should go. I don't even think this is about Rhodes or history but more probably about what some peoples' grievances are over "transformation".
 
Nerfherder

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TriGuN said:
British Imperialism is easily one of the best things to happen to the progression rate of the human species, ever.
When they arrived, SA was comparable to civilizations that existed 5000 yrs ago. It was things like British imperialism that allowed them an almost instant civilizational catch-up. Men like Cecil John Rhodes are not celebrated, but they ought to be treated as if they were God men. There should be bowing, and the sacrificing of virgins, quite frankly ^_~
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People hate the Colonisation but don't mind the progress that comes with it.
 
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TriGuN said:
British Imperialism is easily one of the best things to happen to the progression rate of the human species, ever.
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Nah. You say that probably because you have English connections. Imperialism is not a good thing. Sure there were good effects (building of infrastructure, etc) , but that could have been done by good old fashioned missionary work and more just co-operation between the locals and foreigners.

You're very pro-EU but if you say such things on the continent you'll be laughed out. Partially because Anglophones always attribute all civilization to themselves. Frankly if the Afrikaaners, English settlers and local blacks got things going more justly there would be no need for foreign government interference and such at the end did bad for most of these people. Also look at how Rhodesia was dropped like a hot potato by the previously aggressively imperialist government in the UK. :)
 
porchrat

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I was led to believe that Cecil John Rhodes, having donated the land the University of Cape Town is built upon, was instrumental in the creation of what is today the University of Cape Town. He may not have been a perfect human being but as far as I can see the institution has an obligation to honour the contributions made by that man to the university. That doesn't inherently mean endorsing everything he did or believed in. The least that can be done to remember the man's gift is some crummy statue.
 
Mila

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IThis was created to honor him or even celebrate him but that has passed many moons ago. Nobody celebrates him. Now it's just a piece of art. I don't like art, libraries and architecture to be destroyed. I would love to go see the Romanov castle, Versailles and the Tower of London. most of these places are filled with art and history. Not all of it good, but all of it relevant.

They pour crap over Cecil but celebrate Chaka. Who was the bigger evil? Who killed more black people in this country? Don't tell me it's about who is admired. It's all part of history. Artists created it. Why destroy it? What will you show your grandchildren when you tell them about a brave nation that over thrown the colonialist? so you tell me you don't value that? Well it's kind of selfish when you don't think of generations to come and only about yourself. Buildings are built in honor of people, they get invited and ribbons are cut. Ceremonies and inagurations are done. So why not burn down the whole thing... Or wait, this is a novel idea! Built another even better one, one with money donated by Sexwale or some or other black millionaire! What about the Malema trust fund? make it bigger better and show them how it is done.

But then again I'm probably trying to explain things to people that are first in line to burn libraries.
 
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OrbitalDawn said:
Same argument could be made for the second world war and the progress we got in medicine and technology.
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Indeed, the battle behind the scenes of manufacturers for 'who has the bigger stick' does wonders for technological advancement.
 
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Mila said:
IThis was created to honor him or even celebrate him but that has passed many moons ago. Nobody celebrates him. Now it's just a piece of art. I don't like art, libraries and architecture to be destroyed. I would love to go see the Romanov castle, Versailles and the Tower of London. most of these places are filled with art and history. Not all of it good, but all of it relevant.
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Well it's still maintained for that purpose. And I'm sure many people still look at him with pride. Should one be proud of some of that, sure. The British had the most powerful empire at one stage. They were unmatched at sea. Until the US came along and dismantled it. But is it still ok to push other aspects of that in peoples' faces? If you're on the receiving end of that you may think differently. People like Rhodes, Queen Victoria, Bismarck, etc are divisive. For some they're heroes, for others they're oppressors and tyrants. It's a difficult question to settle.

You know celebration isn't only about holding ceremonies and such, but there are implicit ways of celebrating too. Like keeping the names, keeping statues, memorials, etc.

It should also be said that British Imperialism was not the worst in history. Compare to what the Belgians did in Congo - and the Spanish were not very kind to South Americans either, or Germans in SWA. British were probably the most fair politically speaking.
 
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Sinbad

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Space_Chief said:
Well it's still maintained for that purpose. And I'm sure many people still look at him with pride. Should one be proud of some of that, sure. The British had the most powerful empire at one stage. They were unmatched at sea. Until the US came along and dismantled it. But is it still ok to push other aspects of that in peoples' faces? If you're on the receiving end of that you may think differently. People like Rhodes, Queen Victoria, Bismarck, etc are divisive. For some they're heroes, for others they're oppressors and tyrants. It's a difficult question to settle.
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Everyone's bloody divisive. Everyone has a problem with someone else at some point.
Most people who look at the statue of Rhodes probably have no clue what he did or who he was. Basically all this poo-flinging has done is created an enormous streisand effect, where the good that he did is being brought to the fore once again.

*edit to add, Nelson Mandela was involved in some fairly heinous **** in his life, but we choose to remember him for the good he did. Why is Rhodes treated differently? Is it because he's white?
 
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Sinbad said:
Everyone's bloody divisive. Everyone has a problem with someone else at some point.
Most people who look at the statue of Rhodes probably have no clue what he did or who he was. Basically all this poo-flinging has done is created an enormous streisand effect, where the good that he did is being brought to the fore once again.

*edit to add, Nelson Mandela was involved in some fairly heinous **** in his life, but we choose to remember him for the good he did. Why is Rhodes treated differently? Is it because he's white?
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Rhodes acted on behalf of a foreign power. He is a British hero. Mandela is a local hero, if you will.

It's not as if Rhodes was someone who wanted to make the Republic of SA great for the people who lived here, even mainly whites. He wanted to do this for imperial glory. There is a difference which need not be based on race. I'm sure most Afikaaners won't venerate Rhodes either or South Africans of Irish descent.
 
Mila

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Space_Chief said:
Well it's still maintained for that purpose. And I'm sure many people still look at him with pride. Should one be proud of some of that, sure. The British had the most powerful empire at one stage. They were unmatched at sea. Until the US came along and dismantled it. But is it still ok to push other aspects of that in peoples' faces? If you're on the receiving end of that you may think differently. People like Rhodes, Queen Victoria, Bismarck, etc are divisive. For some they're heroes, for others they're oppressors and tyrants. It's a difficult question to settle.
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Who are these people calibrating him? who did Cecil oppress? Nobody alive. Nobody at that university. Zuma himself flew over to England grove led at the Queens feet and thanked her for everything the British done.

For who are they Heros? Those people are old or dead. It's just a piece of art. It contributes to history by being art. A 100 years from now students will study art history in SA and be able to go stand at an actual piece of art history.


In a 100 years from now someone will study history in America fly over here to come and see this piece of history. Like we do when we travel.

If you don't like history I understand, but why should it be destroyed because a few people just don't care?

I think it is selfish, the British oppressed and killed my people. I don't scoop poop and throw it at statues. I stand at it admire the art and think, you must be turning in your grave ( with a little smirk)

Time to stop living in the past, time to stop statues from oppressing you. Time to stop looking for excuses why you are failing. It's nobodys fault but your own cycle pants clad pink hard head wearing self.

Breaking down a statue is not going to make it better. Addres the issues. Built your own things, in 100 years students will want to know but where is the statues of the people that built the new south Africa's unis. And then? What the?
 
Nerfherder

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Sinbad said:
Everyone's bloody divisive. Everyone has a problem with someone else at some point.
Most people who look at the statue of Rhodes probably have no clue what he did or who he was. Basically all this poo-flinging has done is created an enormous streisand effect, where the good that he did is being brought to the fore once again.

*edit to add, Nelson Mandela was involved in some fairly heinous **** in his life, but we choose to remember him for the good he did. Why is Rhodes treated differently? Is it because he's white?
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and he was gay

Its homophobia
 
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If the statue isn't such a big deal, why not get rid of it seeing as it's causing so many issues now?
 
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