Thoughts on Schools requesting financial information?

[Fulcrum29]

Interesting to note push back against catchment areas… hasn’t that always been one of the major incentives to live in certain neighbourhoods? Even when we were kids back in Pretoria, where your parents bought homes was often chosen based on the quality of the schools in the area.

Let's just say there are reasons BELA got pushed hard. At the start of the school year, there was also a more involved department headcount being done for placement. A lot of people here cry foul, and I am speaking of the middle to upper class when they can't get placement at their preferred school. Two of my neighbours have kids going to Paul Roos, though I think one of the neighbours is an old boy.

 

[Zellephant]

Let's just say there are reasons BELA got pushed hard. At the start of the school year, there was also a more involved department headcount being done for placement. A lot of people here cry foul, and I am speaking of the middle to upper class when they can't get placement at their preferred school. Two of my neighbours have kids going to Paul Roos, though I think one of the neighbours is an old boy.

BELA needs to be overturned. It’s will be the death knell to quality public schooling in South Africa.

All it is is a money grab of the state to get control over SGB bank accounts. If the department is only paying for 10% of the staff salaries, they can have 10% of the say in what the schools do.

Where do you stay? Do you not feel your neighbours kids should be in Paul Roos, or that they only got in coz he is an old boy?

 

[Tomtomtom]

I served on a top schools governing body for 6 years so I am fairly familiar with all this. When my now 17 year old daughter needed to get into Grd 1 it was first come first serve still.

The fact the whole admissions process is evolving itself suggests there's no perfect solution. Centralised placement doesn't sound like an improvement though. Hopefully the WCED does not follow suit.

The whole not being allowed to conduct interviews and what not is all nonsense. If the school is a fee paying school with like 80% of all the schools funding coming from the SGB, they should have loads of autonomy in this regard.

If the department carry on with their heavy handedness, I can see many of the better fee paying schools breaking away and becoming full private schools anyone.

That would be great, but it's basically impossible. The department has the school over the barrel because it owns the land and buildings. I would be surprised if the likes of the WCED has ever sold so much as a fence post into private-sector hands.

That said I'm sure there's some unspoken understandings hence the ability of some schools to openly defy these rules.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Where do you stay? Do you not feel your neighbours kids should be in Paul Roos, or that they only got in coz he is an old boy?

Not within that school's catchment area. If they applied for admission, then enrollment is indeed justified. I don't have any issue with that, it's just an example of placement being given outside of catchment areas. Some schools have a preference criterion for alumnus. I won't know how it works behind the scenes.

I know of real cases where people got their kids accepted at all their chosen schools, both within and outside of catchment areas. I know people who submitted their applications late but still got into their preferred school, while those who applied early had a different experience. So, yeah

Non of which is a concern of mine, just that not all things are being equal. It is definitely not only the department that has an role in placement.

In my case, I only got placement at the school closest to my address, and as far as things go, it turned out well.

 

[Cius]

BELA needs to be overturned. It’s will be the death knell to quality public schooling in South Africa.

All it is is a money grab of the state to get control over SGB bank accounts. If the department is only paying for 10% of the staff salaries, they can have 10% of the say in what the schools do.

Where do you stay? Do you not feel your neighbours kids should be in Paul Roos, or that they only got in coz he is an old boy?

For the school I was over the school fees accounted for about 50% of the school funds that we spent, and honestly probably less as half the teaching staff were paid directly by government and that never went via our budget. The vast majority of the money we raised went into salaries and that is probably the case for most schools. The "free" schools in JHB can have 60 to 70 kids in a class. We kept it down to 35 or so and put teaching assistants in most classes to help bring the adult to child ratio down. For the SGB post teachers the government has no say in their hiring. They are interviewed and hired entirely by the school. For government posts its a mix.

For government teaching and admin staff appointments the GDE advertises the post. The filtered list of candidates is then sent to the school and they interview those they want to. I sat in on a few of those interviews. The school then sends back their first, second and third pick and the GDE generally goes with the first. The same school I was over is now looking for a new principal I believe and even for that top job the current SGB is involved in the interviewing process and has a big say in who is selected. The GDE would not just force a terrible candidate that the school and parents are against on them. I know of one case where there was only a single candidate that was so much better than the rest that the school just sent back the 1 candidate. When the GDE complained saying you need to have second and third choices they responded with that candidate is so good if we can't have him/her we would rather restart the process and hope a new advertising round gets other strong candidates in and it was apparently accepted.

The GDE can be pedantic about some things and some policies make me shake my head but they tend to try maintain good relations with the governing bodies and management staff of the schools.

 

[ShaunSA]

Thoughts, opinions?

They are seeing if you have the money to pay for the results of someone else's good time

Piet was pomping Thandi and now Muthu is here and they can't afford to pay for his schooling so everyone looks at Kosmik like he was shining torch during happy hour

 

[Zellephant]

The fact the whole admissions process is evolving itself suggests there's no perfect solution. Centralised placement doesn't sound like an improvement though. Hopefully the WCED does not follow suit.



That would be great, but it's basically impossible. The department has the school over the barrel because it owns the land and buildings. I would be surprised if the likes of the WCED has ever sold so much as a fence post into private-sector hands.

That said I'm sure there's some unspoken understandings hence the ability of some schools to openly defy these rules.

I get that. But I don’t think the dept always owns all the facilities and land. At least as far as sports facilities go. That is often leased by the school SGB. Same goes for the property and buildings where residences are built.

The public school I attended in the early 2000s sold off a large portion of underutilised land to a developer to build a shopping centre. The funds for this went towards building a new swimming pool and pavilions at the sports fields.

In the case of Paul Roos here locally, as far as I know the Markotter sports fields which the school uses, and where the clubhouse etc sits doesn’t belong to the school, it belongs to the old boys association and that is why they have been allowed to keep their liquor license and host events etc there, even after BELA was passed.

For the school I was over the school fees accounted for about 50% of the school funds that we spent, and honestly probably less as half the teaching staff were paid directly by government and that never went via our budget. The vast majority of the money we raised went into salaries and that is probably the case for most schools. The "free" schools in JHB can have 60 to 70 kids in a class. We kept it down to 35 or so and put teaching assistants in most classes to help bring the adult to child ratio down. For the SGB post teachers the government has no say in their hiring. They are interviewed and hired entirely by the school. For government posts it’s a mix.

For government teaching and admin staff appointments the GDE advertises the post. The filtered list of candidates is then sent to the school and they interview those they want to. I sat in on a few of those interviews. The school then sends back their first, second and third pick and the GDE generally goes with the first. The same school I was over is now looking for a new principal I believe and even for that top job the current SGB is involved in the interviewing process and has a big say in who is selected. The GDE would not just force a terrible candidate that the school and parents are against on them. I know of one case where there was only a single candidate that was so much better than the rest that the school just sent back the 1 candidate. When the GDE complained saying you need to have second and third choices they responded with that candidate is so good if we can't have him/her we would rather restart the process and hope a new advertising round gets other strong candidates in and it was apparently accepted.

The GDE can be pedantic about some things and some policies make me shake my head but they tend to try maintain good relations with the governing bodies and management staff of the schools.

The problem with BELA is it gives the provincial education departments a lot more oversight ability, and strips a lot of the autonomy SGBs had prior to 2025. So into the future the dept will have less and less incentive to play nice with the SGB, and if they don’t like a decision the SGB makes, the dept now has absolute authority to disband the SGB and take over management of its finances by decree

 

[Cius]

I get that. But I don’t think the dept always owns all the facilities and land. At least as far as sports facilities go. That is often leased by the school SGB. Same goes for the property and buildings where residences are built.

The public school I attended in the early 2000s sold off a large portion of underutilised land to a developer to build a shopping centre. The funds for this went towards building a new swimming pool and pavilions at the sports fields.

In the case of Paul Roos here locally, as far as I know the Markotter sports fields which the school uses, and where the clubhouse etc sits doesn’t belong to the school, it belongs to the old boys association and that is why they have been allowed to keep their liquor license and host events etc there, even after BELA was passed.

The problem with BELA is it gives the provincial education departments a lot more oversight ability, and strips a lot of the autonomy SGBs had prior to 2025. So into the future the dept will have less and less incentive to play nice with the SGB, and if they don’t like a decision the SGB makes, the dept now has absolute authority to disband the SGB and take over management of its finances by decree

Yep, agree BELA is a terrible idea. Was talking about pre-BELA days in my post above. Out of it now so not sure how its evolving. Can ask some friends who are still involved and feed back I guess. Still have a mate who is chairman at a top high school.

 

[W@P]

This has been the way of the world for as long as decent education has existed. Instead of look down on it, be thankful for it. It’s exactly that dick swinging that has built the centre of excellence you so dearly chose for your kids, and provides them with the phenomenal facilities and sees to it they aren’t 55+ students to a class, and that manners and discipline remain the order of the day.

I prefer to stay out of the limelight and hold a low profile. No need for me to attend the braai and join the so-called "club".

If I feel there is a need to upgrade certain facilities at the school, and I want to pay for it, I will make arrangements with the school.
The lapa was used as an example. In my case, they did exactly that. The lapa. And some other stuff as well. Not sure what they did cause it still looks the same. But there were renovations done.

And I am sure as fsck not gonna buy my boys into the rugby teams or to become prefects or leaders, whatever you call them.

 

[Bliksis]

Probably to assess the parent's ability to pay. It's understandable with private schools, if they don't get paid, they can't pay the staff...

They can, but then they can't pay the shareholders. Lolz

 

[Brawler]

I don't see the problem really. 'Model C' schools get a tiny fraction from government (IIRC my daughters was 8%) and rely on fees.

The non-payment rate is crazy high although I am not sure the problem will be (fully) solved with this safeguard. I know about people driving R2m cars that fusk around with school fees.

 

[Zellephant]

I don't see the problem really. 'Model C' schools get a tiny fraction from government (IIRC my daughters was 8%) and rely on fees.

The non-payment rate is crazy high although I am not sure the problem will be (fully) solved with this safeguard. I know about people driving R2m cars that fusk around with school fees.

Problem is the mentality of some newly minted middle class “government Employees” types. What they can afford is irrelevant, as soon as they learn that she school can’t deny their kids education if they don’t pay, they stop paying. Just like they cancel the insurance on their new cars the minute they drive them off the showroom floor.

The idea of paying the school so they can maintain a healthy interest earning capital balance while maintaining infrastructure long term, is simply not something a typical newly minted African culture mind can fathom.

 

[bwana]

Yes.

In that case I think you're pretty much at their mercy. Assuming you want your kid to go there then I'd redact anything that's really none of their business and see what happens.

 

[Kosmik]

In that case I think you're pretty much at their mercy. Assuming you want your kid to go there then I'd redact anything that's really none of their business and see what happens.

It ended fine, came back with a not to worry because of my existing history etc, so all good.

If schools, or businesses for that matter are requiring such information, there needs to be strict regulation and enforcement around it, with the correct data security or a proper financial vetting company doing it where data is secure. Same as a payment provider is required to comply, otherwise it's a waiting time bomb.

 

[bwana]

It ended fine, came back with a not to worry because of my existing history etc, so all good.

That bit was confusing.

 

[B-1]

It ended fine, came back with a not to worry because of my existing history etc, so all good.

If schools, or businesses for that matter are requiring such information, there needs to be strict regulation and enforcement around it, with the correct data security or a proper financial vetting company doing it where data is secure. Same as a payment provider is required to comply, otherwise it's a waiting time bomb.

This is Africa just make a few mockup payslips and call it a day.

 

[Kosmik]

That bit was confusing.

The person prepping the applications was a stickler for process so they were trying to enforce the new change.

I can appreciate that, as much as appreciate that my concern was escalated and considered.

 

[Kosmik]

This is Africa just make a few mockup payslips and call it a day.

It would eat me for the rest of my life

 

[B-1]

It would eat me for the rest of my life

I can garantee you many of the guys showing up in fancy cars have a payslip that says they earn R20K a month.

 

[Zellephant]

I can garantee you many of the guys showing up in fancy cars have a payslip that says they earn R20K a month.

20k or 200k? What fancy car are you going to get finance for with a payslip of 20k?