Thoughts on Schools requesting financial information?

[Kosmik]

It sucks but a lot of people apply to these schools saying they can pay fees but then immediately apply for consessions.
Its a problem for these governing body schools who rely on a big chunk of their income from fees.

For a private school, its a business. They need to know you can actually pay before they give you a spot.
For government schools, they need to know that they are accepting a certain percentage of learners who can pay fees.

Its a bit of a hustle but not supplying that information would probably count against your kid getting in.
I'm going through the same thing with my daughter at the moment going into high school. Its flipping stressful.

I will see with them, as they are going through it but as mentioned, I haven't shared that financial information with any company and for a school, I doubt they have the required financial security concerns in place. Not saying they would do anything wrong but if anyone knows school IT systems, heck if they aren't like sieves.

There's a reason why we have payment providers, tokens and what not.

 

[bwana]

Nope. Always 1st of the month via stop order. Apparently its a new thing by the SGB.

Private school?

 

[Kosmik]

Private school?

Yes.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Back when I had to do an application for my kid going to high school. Two of the three schools in my area requested it. All three of them, laid down the terms for nonpayment in the application form documents.

I heard from a insider, that under review, they tend to glance over anyone self-employed (or freelancing) unless you are known.

Note: All public schools.

 

[Fulcrum29]

I will see with them, as they are going through it but as mentioned, I haven't shared that financial information with any company and for a school, I doubt they have the required financial security concerns in place. Not saying they would do anything wrong but if anyone knows school IT systems, heck if they aren't like sieves.

There's a reason why we have payment providers, tokens and what not.

I never provide my income, and I consider all of my employment confidential. If you need to prove your income to the school, provide a fully redacted three-month bank statement that only shows your main salary or main income stream. The rest I would consider private. Just like certain financial officers, the school will not regard it as non-disclosable. It is funny how only lawyers generally respect that. Not even doctors are bothered by that.

 

[Kosmik]

Back when I had to do an application for my kid going to high school. Two of the three schools in my area requested it. All three of them, laid down the terms for nonpayment in the application form documents.

I heard from a insider, that under review, they tend to glance over anyone self-employed (or freelancing) unless you are known.

Note: All public schools.

Non payment and committal of fees are normal, no problems with any of that. My worry is this information being stored and floating around.

And being private there is no such thing as fee exemption, they are well within their rights to go against parents for late payment etc. But its stupid if they want to drive away already well paying parents with children in the school and you have a history. Even the transfer docs request school clearance and payment history, again no issues with that being disclosed.

 

[Kosmik]

I never provide my income, and I consider all of my employment confidential. If you need to prove your income to the school, provide a fully redacted three-month bank statement that only shows your main salary or main income stream. The rest I would consider private. Just like certain financial officers, the school will not regard it as non-disclosable. It is funny how only lawyers generally respect that. Not even doctors are bothered by that.

That would be my fallback to with them. They can have a statement showing the salary line with the figure redacted and a proof of employment letter as well, those should satisfy the need.

 

[Nerfherder]

The odd thing is the school has little to do with placement. The Department of Education took over that role years back. You now apply via the online portal, and yes drop some docs at the school for verification but if you get in or not depends on the department. I wonder if the schools have found a way to jippo the system by then saying to the department these people did not provide the necessary docs, so perhaps they went to a different school and hence con the department of education into not placing the poor kids in the school. Very odd.

They must have some input because all the schools are asking for separate applications as well as the departmentment one.

There are probably some loopholes like they can send a list of learners who have siblings at the school already, so the school must have a "prefered list" they send to the department.

 

[Nerfherder]

I will see with them, as they are going through it but as mentioned, I haven't shared that financial information with any company and for a school, I doubt they have the required financial security concerns in place. Not saying they would do anything wrong but if anyone knows school IT systems, heck if they aren't like sieves.

There's a reason why we have payment providers, tokens and what not.

Agreed.

The problem is these schools don't have business level IT systems.
I hate it myself but this whole system is a fail.

 

[Cius]

This stuff is very interesting. You get fee-paying public schools in the leafy suburbs that are for all intents and purposes private in terms of how exclusive the admissions are. The surrounding property prices have a lot to do with that.

But then you have the catchment area thing. I'm still not sure what the actual status is but I'm hearing it's also illegal to discriminate on that.

So then in theory it's only transport costs that stops elite public schools being flooded with people who can't pay. But I have a feeling there's a lot of grey-area or outright-unlawful stuff that goes on in practice.

And is it a bad thing? The equilibrium that results from non-paying parents dominating admissions to high-quality public schools is simply no more high-quality public schools, and kids travelling long distances for no reason.

I served on a top schools governing body for 6 years so I am fairly familiar with all this. When my now 17 year old daughter needed to get into Grd 1 it was first come first serve still. I paid a friend to start queuing at around 3PM when we got word the first people had started the queue and then came after work to relieve him. Spent the night on a camp chair in front of the school to apply. Was 8th in line. Was annoying but at least guaranteed that my daughter would get in. The line at fourways high apparently started 24 hours before.

That changed when the Gauteng department of education took over admissions with the launch of their admissions portal. Was a messy launch with the site going down repeatedly due to volume as people still thought it was first come first serve and everyone tried to log in at 8AM or something taking it down. However at that point they changed to a new system built around 5 tiers. Not first come first served.

First tier was school zone. You generally have to be in the zone.

2nd tier was distance as the crow flies. They now give preference based on distance of the home, or place of work, to the school with almost no distinctions initially. The schools fought back hard as that was excluding siblings who's parents lived a bit further out so they eventually allowed for siblings already in the school to be the exceptions to that. Very hard to have kids in different schools for drop offs and extra murals etc so at least they saw sense there.

So if you want to know if you can get into a school best bet is to call the school admissions officer and ask what distance was the cutoff the previous year. For instance for Randpark Primary it was around 1.8 km as the crow flies (provided you are within the school zone).

Then the most recent change was to drop foreign kids down to tier 5. So even if you live close to the school, but your kid is not a SA citizen if the school is popular it is unlikely you get in. This was due to the staggering default rates of foreign kids in SA fee paying schools. These kids parents would never pay, get some of the best education in Africa, all while denying a spot to an actual SA citizens kids. So the government changed that. Keeping in mind foreign kids never qualify for exemption, and parents sign a document with home affairs committing they can pay when they apply for that slot.

I forget what the other tiers are but they tend not to matter for the top schools. The one had something to do with the feeder primary school. You get preference if you came for instance from a government primary school over kids switching to public schools after grade 7 from private schools. Lots of parents try do that as costs go up a lot in private schooling at high school level. If you want to do that switch you have to try switch them end of grade 6 latest. If you are aiming for a top school like Fourways, Randpark High etc or their feeder primary schools distance to the school is what you have to figure out if your kids are SA citizens.

Other options to get around this:
1. Get a bursary/achievement spot. Most of the top high schools get 25 spots they offer with full ride bursaries to top performers in sports from the primary schools. Can be challenging as the kid has to maintain a certain level or lose the bursary so puts a lot of pressure on them. They also cannot switch sports at some schools. Know of at least one kid who it really put undue pressure on and ruined his high school experience so be careful of this one.
2. Know someone in the department of education who overrides the system and places you anyways. Yes this happens.
3. Lie about your address. This is becoming more common. People fake their address, or use a family/friends address for their application knowing its the factor that matters most. Schools are now doing far deeper checks. Gets ugly when parents who did not make it in find out just how far out people live who did get in.

 

[Cius]

They must have some input because all the schools are asking for separate applications as well as the departmentment one.

There are probably some loopholes like they can send a list of learners who have siblings at the school already, so the school must have a "prefered list" they send to the department.

My knowledge only applies to Gauteng department of education but I can confirm for them they do final placements with a few exceptions. The school is involved in validating docs etc but that is just the GDE outsourcing some of the work to the school. The GDE still has final say in the list of kids accepted. The school gets to send a list of siblings that should be allowed in if another sibling is already in the school and their allowed bursary slots but otherwise it would have to be a one by one negotiation. The department has the final say. You can lose your slot if you fail to hand in your docs in time at the school you are placed in and then a kid on the waiting list may make it in. Or if they find you lied on your forms.

 

[Tun@]

Nope. Always 1st of the month via stop order. Apparently its a new thing by the SGB.

I would just send them a print out of those transactions.

 

[Zellephant]

In the Western Cape at least this not quite true. While the WCED has centralised the application process, the school still makes the decision on admissions. They also apparently have been told they cannot conduct interviews with kids/parents, but some schools openly defy that. I guess the idea was to try to limit the information the school has access to and can discriminate on, but it just doesn't (and probably shouldn't) work in practice.

The whole not being allowed to conduct interviews and what not is all nonsense. If the school is a fee paying school with like 80% of all the schools funding coming from the SGB, they should have loads of autonomy in this regard. The department can insist of a certain number of placements based on the departments financial contribution to the school, but beyond that, what right do they have to dictate terms when it comes to SGB funded slots, placements, bursaries etc.

If the department carry on with their heavy handedness, I can see many of the better fee paying schools breaking away and becoming full private schools anyone. They essentially operate as private schools as it is. At some of the schools in our town, it’s not unheard of for 90% of the schools budget to be from the SGB anyway, especially when it comes to facilities and maintenance and teachers salaries. With BELA coming along as well as a not so subtle government agenda to grab SGB funds, there really is little to no incentive to stay “public”

By my kids public school they have this special braai for al die manne at the start of each year.
All that it is a dick swinging fest. Who can shoot the most money on BS at a stupid auction.

This has been the way of the world for as long as decent education has existed. Instead of look down on it, be thankful for it. It’s exactly that dick swinging that has built the centre of excellence you so dearly chose for your kids, and provides them with the phenomenal facilities and sees to it they aren’t 55+ students to a class, and that manners and discipline remain the order of the day.

Back when I had to do an application for my kid going to high school. Two of the three schools in my area requested it. All three of them, laid down the terms for nonpayment in the application form documents.

I heard from a insider, that under review, they tend to glance over anyone self-employed (or freelancing) unless you are known.

Note: All public schools.

That could be a bit of problem in town like ours. We are surrounded by some of the most elite public schools in the country, but almost all the parents in our circles are self employed in one way or another….

 

[Fulcrum29]

That could be a bit of problem in town like ours. We are surrounded by some of the most elite public schools in the country, but almost all the parents in our circles are self employed in one way or another….

I don't know in which province you live, but our schools gives enrollment priority to residents in its catchment area. There is a lot of push back here against catchment areas.

If you live in what is a basin full of elite public schools, and have inner circles of friends that are mainly self-employed, I can't see how you would have a problem with enrollment.

 

[Zellephant]

I don't know in which province you live, but our schools gives enrollment priority to residents in its catchment area. There is a lot of push back here against catchment areas.

If you live in what is a basin full of elite public schools, and have inner circles of friends that are mainly self-employed, I can't see how you would have a problem with enrollment.

We live in Stellenbosch for what it’s worth, and enrolments isn’t too much of a problem, but there are some issues with primary school to a degree. Spaces are limited, and people living on the outskirts of town, or on the wine farms do sometimes battle with placement and the system places them into less ideal schools in township areas sometimes, so you need to gippo a bit by using friends addresses in town, or a justifiying placement via work address instead of home. High school is less of an issue with placement for locals.

Interesting to note push back against catchment areas… hasn’t that always been one of the major incentives to live in certain neighbourhoods? Even when we were kids back in Pretoria, where your parents bought homes was often chosen based on the quality of the schools in the area.

 

[Nerfherder]

The whole not being allowed to conduct interviews and what not is all nonsense. If the school is a fee paying school with like 80% of all the schools funding coming from the SGB, they should have loads of autonomy in this regard. The department can insist of a certain number of placements based on the departments financial contribution to the school, but beyond that, what right do they have to dictate terms when it comes to SGB funded slots, placements, bursaries etc.

I think about this often and although it hasn't happened yet I think we will see many of these schools going private.

The funding from the department is so low and the difference in fees between a good public school and an average private school is nominal. So for just a bit extra you don't have to put up with the dept of education nonsense.

It's a sad irony that by trying to be inclusive they just exclude other people. IF those people have money then they go to private, if they don't they go to private and then try and fight to get into the government school for the next year.
People leave these fancy government schools all the time, where do they go ? To private schools (or emigrate).
So slowly the government schools are eroding their paying customer base.
At some point it tips over and the parents who are at the school decide that they are either going to leave or change the school into a private school.

 

[Nerfherder]

I don't know in which province you live, but our schools gives enrollment priority to residents in its catchment area. There is a lot of push back here against catchment areas.

If you live in what is a basin full of elite public schools, and have inner circles of friends that are mainly self-employed, I can't see how you would have a problem with enrollment.

It makes sense that you go to the school in your area ... but because so many areas don't have good schools (or schools at all) means that people with kids will try and move into those areas with good schools... then it becomes prohibitively expensive to live in those areas.

it's a vicious cycle.

 

[Nerfherder]

We live in Stellenbosch for what it’s worth, and enrolments isn’t too much of a problem, but there are some issues with primary school to a degree. Spaces are limited, and people living on the outskirts of town, or on the wine farms do sometimes battle with placement and the system places them into less ideal schools in township areas sometimes, so you need to gippo a bit by using friends addresses in town, or a justifiying placement via work address instead of home. High school is less of an issue with placement for locals.

Interesting to note push back against catchment areas… hasn’t that always been one of the major incentives to live in certain neighbourhoods? Even when we were kids back in Pretoria, where your parents bought homes was often chosen based on the quality of the schools in the area.

It does seem like high schools get more of a choice, I think its because its not compulsory.

Because Gr1 is compulsory it puts a lot of pressure on the primary schools.

 

[Zellephant]

I think about this often and although it hasn't happened yet I think we will see many of these schools going private.

The funding from the department is so low and the difference in fees between a good public school and an average private school is nominal. So for just a bit extra you don't have to put up with the dept of education nonsense.

It's a sad irony that by trying to be inclusive they just exclude other people. IF those people have money then they go to private, if they don't they go to private and then try and fight to get into the government school for the next year.
People leave these fancy government schools all the time, where do they go ? To private schools (or emigrate).
So slowly the government schools are eroding their paying customer base.
At some point it tips over and the parents who are at the school decide that they are either going to leave or change the school into a private school.

Yeah, I look at a school like Paul Roos (where hopefully our boys will be attending in a few years). It’s an absolutely brilliant school. On par with the best private schools in the country. But all of its facilities are paid for and maintained privately. The dept of education only provides a salary for a single groundskeeper and 2 gardeners, for the maintenance of that entire estate. So basically the grounds and maintenance and sports facilities and so on is already 100% privately maintained. Two thirds of their academic staff are also SGB posts.

That school has no shortage of money, and old boys alumni organisation that includes the who’s who of the South African business community, and a massive heritage and history. With BELA breathing down its neck, there is really very little incentive to remain a public school in my eyes. Fees wouldn’t need to increase all that much if that was to happen.

 

[Zellephant]

It makes sense that you go to the school in your area ... but because so many areas don't have good schools (or schools at all) means that people with kids will try and move into those areas with good schools... then it becomes prohibitively expensive to live in those areas.

it's a vicious cycle.

But this is nothing new. It’s always been the way things worked. The only other alternative is to send your children to boarding school if you don’t live near good schools.

And with the rise of private schools like Curro and Generations and Redham etc filling the gap the government has failed to fill, by building and establishing good private schools in the places where there aren’t already sufficient schools, the problem of areas with no good schools is also becoming less.

But access to good schools has always driven property prices. It’s the nature of the beast if you want to live by western standards. People settle and area, build improvements (shopping centre, hospitals, churches, schools) and the value of the entire area increases. The next generation inherits the accumulated wealth of their parents and so the cycle continues. Except when the ANC enters the chat and tries to destroy all that is good without building anything up