Threat to property

Flanders

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A law that would allow the state to seize private property is closer to being enacted.

Tomorrow is the deadline for public comment on the Expropriation Bill, which would give the minister of public works sweeping powers to expropriate private property - ranging from homes to business premises, and even shares and other investments - "in the public interest".

Critics of the proposed legislation say it is vague and could severely damage the country's investment credentials.

But yesterday Deputy Minister of Public Works Jeremy Cronin told The Times that the bill "makes sense" in the context of South Africa's "historical reality".

Part of that reality was revisited yesterday when tens of thousands of Zion Christian Church members gathered in Pretoria for a prayer meeting to mark the centenary of the enactment of the 1913 Land Act.

The act is widely regarded as the trigger of a series of laws of dispossession that later became the apartheid system, which limited black South Africans' fixed property purchases to "scheduled black areas".

Cronin said the bill would be better suited to land reform than the current Expropriation Act, which dates back to 1975.

He said the government would not "whimsically" expropriate once the bill was enacted.

But Manus Booysen, a partner at law firm Webber Wentzel, warned that the bill, if enacted in its current form, would "have severe implications for property rights".

Respect for property rights and intellectual property protection were listed among the country's strengths in the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report for 2013.

South Africa came 26th among 144 countries on protection of property rights and 20th on the protection of intellectual property, the report showed.

Property, Booysen said, was so broadly defined in the bill that it would include movable assets such as vehicles and works of art. It also refers to "a right in, or to, property".

"This means that shares in a company, as well as various rights in property - including intellectual property rights and incorporeal property - could be expropriated under the bill," said Booysen.

On compensation, Booysen said "there is no guarantee that you will get market value".

The bill lists several factors that a court should take into account when considering the validity of an expropriation - and market value is just one of them.

The list is not exhaustive, meaning that "any other factor" could also be taken into account.

This, Booysen argued, would create uncertainty and was "a deterrent to both foreign local investment in this country".

The bill does more than merely empower the minister to expropriate property for a "public purpose", as provided for in the current act.

It also allows the minister to expropriate property in the "public interest".

Though this is in line with the constitution, Booysen said the bill did not provide additional criteria to help in the assessment of what would be in the "public interest".

But Cronin downplayed this, saying expropriation could still be challenged in court "if [the expropriation] is just to enrich somebody's cousin".

Cronin said the definition of property was deliberately kept "general" and that the bill was drafted on legal advice "to not get trapped into a definition".

The DA's spokesman on public works, Anchen Dreyer, said she was concerned that the bill, if it became law, would undermine security of property ownership.

"Security of ownership is essential for investment, foreign as well as domestic, and for starting or expanding businesses. If this right is tampered with, there will be little growth, with an adverse effect on job creation," she said.

The bill succeeds a 2008 version, which was withdrawn towards the end of that year because of concerns in the consultation stages that it would severely damage the property market and discourage investment.

Cronin said that the bill was still being discussed by the National Economic Development and Labour Council.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/04/29/threat-to-property

So, revving the masses early for next year or one step closer to complete banana republic? Either way, it's things like this combined with the info bill that give the Zim 2.0 theory definite credence.
 
He said the government would not "whimsically" expropriate once the bill was enacted.

ASkuus!! Has he met the ANC?

FFS.

I love that one, if they have valid reasons like when the property is used for drug manufacturing they can already expropriate the property.

There is no reason for this other than to take whats not rightfully theirs to take.
 
I love that one, if they have valid reasons like when the property is used for drug manufacturing they can already expropriate the property.

There is no reason for this other than to take whats not rightfully theirs to take.

+1
Why would I want Invest in something if I can not even be sure that that what I legally bought and paid taxes for can be taken because they feel like it. Or they deem it to be fair.

This is so backwards it is not even funny.
 
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Oh dear this is bad, very bad. It jut proves that we are all really slaves and I mean that in the truest sense of the word- we can never truly own property.

Furthermore this also proves what a crock of rubbish the Constitution really is. It entrenches the right to security of property but that little clause in the Bill of Rights that says 'limited in terms of law general application' effectively undoes that.

You are chattel, not human beings.
 
Paper rights.
Paper constitution.
Paper money.

Governments are the most destructive force in the known universe. They should be abolished.
 
I honestly thought the government already had such power. Telkom has such power (or used to) so I assumed so did the government. The only way I would approve something like this is if the persons or people who decide are a high court judges.
 
Paper rights.
Paper constitution.
Paper money.

Governments are the most destructive force in the known universe. They should be abolished.


Paper money.
For some reason money made from bricks never caught on. Money based on gold lead to the great depression. Do you think we should use prawns rather a currency?

*sigh*

If you have a problem with the police... the way to fix crime is not to remove the police force. If you have a problem with government... the way to fix it is not to destroy it.

Once you remove governments the centers of power will become the corporations. Once your new overlords are rich shareholders instead of democratically elected officials do you honestly think you are going to get more than you do now? If you do, I can say without much certainty.... you will never be in a position of power to ever make such a decision.

I like lunatic views as much as the next guy, but not when theyre applied to running my country.

Governments are the most destructive force in the known universe. They should be abolished.
A government is people working together. It is made up of people we choose. A government can be anything from a school governing body right through to us all working together to run a country. I find your anti-government hysteria hilarious.... and reminds me so much of Glen Beck and Alex Jones (almost word for word). The only thing we are missing is Obama hating. You do that and it would be like Im watching Glen Beck live :D
 
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I have actually got the bill fully anotated on my desk waiting for a latenight bashing together into submissions. Briefly the power to expropriate already exists and is currently exercised in accordance with a 1975 Act. This bill improves on that Act in many respects but there are some minor and major problems. The most problematic area is the creeping in of "for public purpose or in the public interest" which is found in the Constitution but as a general statement setting out what is required in a law of general application. It is my view that a lot of the stuff written about the Bill looses sight of things and that the Bill needs a few tweeks and unlike, for example, the Licensing of Business Bill is in need of improvement and an alignment to the constitution rather than needs to be used as kindling in a hellfire for cabinet.
 
You don't seem to get that the problem isn't the paper but the authority that backs it.

In the above litany, the common denominator is Government, not paper.

But then I s'pose a strict literalist who also supports socialism just can't parse idioms like Paper Tiger, Paper Rights, Paper Constitution -- he gets stuck on the paper!

What a hoot you are, ghoti.
 
You don't seem to get that the problem isn't the paper but the authority that backs it.

You have never shown any indication you understand how the value of fiat currency is determined. Its a countries output in terms of trade, production, agriculture, etc etc. Its value is decided by the market like with most currencies.

If you dont like the authority that backs it. Go play in the bitcoin bubble. NO AUTHORITY. And its like the gold standard. It has no real value. Nothing could possibly go wrong.... hehehehehe

But then I s'pose a strict literalist who also supports socialism just can't parse idioms like Paper Tiger, Paper Rights, Paper Constitution -- he gets stuck on the paper!
Yeah poor me. Shame.

FYI. I am a modern social liberal. Not a socialist (I am just as much a libertarian as I am a socialist). I need to clarify this.

Modern American liberalism combines social liberalism with support for social justice and a mixed economy. American liberal causes include voting rights for African Americans, abortion rights for women, gay rights and government programs such as education and health care.[1] It has its roots in Theodore Roosevelt's New Nationalism, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, Harry S. Truman's Fair Deal, John F. Kennedy's New Frontier, and Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society. Conservatives oppose liberals on most issues; the relationship between liberal and progressive is debated.[2][3][4][5][6][7]

Keynesian economic theory has played a central role in the economic philosophy of modern American liberals.[8] The argument has been that national prosperity requires government management of the macroeconomy, to keep unemployment low, inflation in check, and growth high.[8]
John F. Kennedy defined a liberal as follows:[9][10]

...someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal', then I’m proud to say I’m a 'Liberal'.JFK

Modern American liberals value institutions that defend against economic inequality. In The Conscience of a Liberal (2007), by Paul Krugman, p. 267, he states: "I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I'm proud of it." Liberals often point to the widespread prosperity enjoyed under a mixed economy in the years since World War II.[11][12] They believe liberty exists when access to necessities like health care and economic opportunity are available to all,[13] and they champion the protection of the environment.[14][15] Modern American liberalism is typically associated with the Democratic Party, as modern American conservatism is typically associated with the Republican Party.[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States

Modern Liberals rock (JFK--- I bolded his bit)... when anti-government punks are not killing them off.
 
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Zim went down this road .. and now they don't have food.
God they will never learn..
 
When and where were these public participation meetings held and more importantly where were they advertised? Were advertisements for important issues such as these also put in the classified section of newspapers like other public participation notices are?
 
But Cronin downplayed this, saying expropriation could still be challenged in court "if [the expropriation] is just to enrich somebody's cousin".

So by this I gather you have no chance at all as a private citizen.

In the public's interest

By this I gather in the interest of the majority. All the public and corrupt municipalities will make the decisions leaving it to the poor evicted to challenge it in "Con" "court" at his own expense (whose riches was expropriated) in a lengthy battle that will bankrupt them anyway.

All I see is a Zim2 scenario the "legal way".

Better sell before it's too late?
 
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Oh, I understand fiat currency very well, as my portfolio shows. BTW, gold is just another social fiat, though a harder one for Caesar to debase. You could benefit from Anne Barnhardt's videos on economics - they're much easier to get than Ludwig von Mises.

And now it's raining cats and dogs!
 
Back to topic.

I've resigned myself pretty much to the notion that socialists and statist collectivists like Cronin (whom I know) and ghoti (whom I don't know) will seemingly have their day. This bill is but another step down the road to the wholesale abolition of private property and thus totalitarianism.

Yes, I'll add my voice to those opposing it (am an original member of the FMF) and in a memo to the appropriate parliamentary committee. But I know where they're going with this. The irony is I spent time in prison fighting for liberty against the previous apartheid (aka white socialism) regime. Now we have new masters who are even greater enemies of liberty.

These people are relentlessly fixated on wanting to run other people's lives.
 
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Eish, doomsayers all over. The Gautrain guys expropriated a lot of people's houses. Some of the residents were so pissed off that they went to court to prevent the expropriation but sense privailed out of court.
 
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