Threat to property

[Seriously]

Eish, doomsayers all over. The Gautrain guys expropriated a lot of people's houses. Some of the residents were so pissed off that they went to court to prevent the expropriation but sense privailed out of court.

Many was called of as doomsayers when they in the past stated that this country would become a corrupt quagmire of self enriching comrades pillaging everything when and whereever they can. We speak again in a few years .... if we still exist that is.

 

[2026]

Eish, doomsayers all over. The Gautrain guys expropriated a lot of people's houses. Some of the residents were so pissed off that they went to court to prevent the expropriation but sense privailed out of court.

If this is the case, why are they making additions? This makes the law even more suspicious....

 

[Seriously]

Back to topic.

I've resigned myself pretty much to the notion that socialists and statist collectivists like Cronin (whom I know) and ghoti (whom I don't know) will seemingly have their day. This bill is but another step down the road to the wholesale abolition of private property and thus totalitarianism.

Yes, I'll add my voice to those opposing it (am an original member of the FMF) and in a memo to the appropriate parliamentary committee. But I know where they're going with this. The irony is I spent time in prison fighting for liberty against the previous apartheid (aka white socialism) regime. Now we have new masters who are even greater enemies of liberty.

These people are relentlessly fixated on wanting to run other people's lives.

If true Kudo's to you.

 

[w1z4rd]

These people are relentlessly fixated on wanting to run other people's lives.

Wrong. Its mostly ****, under appreciated work to be honest.

The people ... pay taxes .... they are paying the salaries of certain people to manage things (like roads, prisons, public educations, etc) that they dont want to / have the time to manage themselves.

These people, expect those they have chosen and are paying.... to work hard in making a safe, secure and sustainable community. If you dont like government's you are welcome to move to Somalia where they have basically have little civilization or government.

I cant understand why right wing libertarians dont move there en-masse.. Oh wait I do. They prefer to live in a country with more functional governments

 

[Garson007]

Media gonna media.

 

[w1z4rd]

The irony is I spent time in prison fighting for liberty against the previous apartheid (aka white socialism) regime..

Nationalism is not socialism. /sigh You didnt even know what you were fighting....

Communists also fought white nationalists (the Nazi`s). So basically all you are telling me is you and the socialists have something in common. You both fought nationalism.

 

[Arthur]

Nationalism is not socialism. /sigh You didnt even know what you were fighting....

Communists also fought white nationalists (the Nazi`s). So basically all you are telling me is you and the socialists have something in common. You both fought nationalism.

No, I did not fight nationalism. I fought socialism - the racially-biased version of it called apartheid.

Where do you come up with ridiculous notions like equating socialism and nationalism? You create these fictions out of whole cloth, which is normally an attribute only of deities.

 

[w1z4rd]

No, I did not fight nationalism. I fought socialism - the racially-biased version of it called apartheid.

Do you know what the N... in NP stood for?

So let me get this right? You didnt fight the nationalists cause of their racist policies, you fought them cause they had public schools?

 

[w1z4rd]

You create these fictions out of whole cloth, which is normally an attribute only of deities.

An attack at religion in this discussion? really?

 

[lucifir]

These people are relentlessly fixated on wanting to run other people's lives.

^^ this ....

why do we need more laws??
I say that all laws should have an expiry date, so that after a certain period, they are forced to be reviewed.

 

[w1z4rd]

^^ this ....

why do we need more laws??
I say that all laws should have an expiry date, so that after a certain period, they are forced to be reviewed.

<jest>Yeah why on earth does a law against rape have to last forever? I mean, one day it could be acceptable again.</jest>

Though I do kinda agree with you. Laws should be reviewed regularly.

 

[Seriously]

<jest>Yeah why on earth does a law against rape have to last forever? I mean, one day it could be acceptable again.</jest>

Though I do kinda agree with you. Laws should be reviewed regularly.

Well politically and culturally speaking ........ never mind.

 

[Arthur]

Do you know what the N... in NP stood for?

So let me get this right? You didnt fight the nationalists cause of their racist policies, you fought them cause they had public schools?

Listen, ghoti. You can try to put words in other people's mouths (which is par for the course for those who see themselves as the authentic interpreters of the political economy), but your snide condescension only redounds to the narrowness of your own weltanschauung. I knew what N stood - and opposed their policies - probably before you were in nappies.

The National Party happened to be the political party that instantiated legally-entrenched apartheid after '48 (though the Empire did large part of the work socially and culturally before that). The problem was not that they were also nationalists (upper-or lowercase), nor that they were Afrikaners. The problem was that their policies were foundationed on a form of statist collectivism that seriously mitigated ordinary property rights and subordinated them to the racially-exclusive state. The way apartheid was implemented was through a serious erosion of the ordinary property rights of people. Land was zoned (racially) and no person could legally transfer land to people of other races. The racial element also extended to even restricting who may marry whom on racial terms - again, an unwarranted, immoral and outrageous state intrusion on the natural rights of any person.

It is not only the Black people of this country who had their ordinary property rights trampled and trammelled, but even White people. No White cinema owner could legally admit Black people to his cinema, no White landowner could legally enter into a lease agreement with a "non-White". Etcetera.

So you see, apartheid was (a) a seriously immoral mitigation of and wholesale intrusion into normal private property rights and freedom of contract, and (b) immorally based on a non-choice attribute called race or ethnicity. It was a double-whammy, because it combined socialism with racialism. The economic aspect (socialism) was premised on the view that the state can trump property rights (which they did in practice), and that its definitions were primarily group-based, ie it had a statist-collectivist philosophical underpinning.

Your way of seeing the world isn't the only way, ghoti. You have fallen for a deeply flawed analysis of history, society, economics and politics. When it comes to property rights, I see no difference between Hitler and Stalin (or Lenin, if you prefer) - both detested private property rights and subordinated them to the State. One was Right Wing and the other was Left Wing. Hitler's party was not called the National Socialist Party for nothing. Ditto the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. For me, the political spectrum does not run Left to Right. Rather, it runs from Freedom to State Control.

 

[w1z4rd]

Well politically and culturally speaking ........ never mind.

When it comes to government Im happy for laws to be reviewed as often as is practical. This makes sense. I also think there should be more political accountability in the form of virtually absolute transparency in government.This is the way we fix government. We dont fix things by handing over power in all its integrity back to the kings (kings is just another word for ultra wealthy). You take away our governments. You look around had who the biggest corporations are. They`ll be your new leaders. Except now you dont get a vote. Personally if armageddon happens and libertarians get their dream world. Im going to become a citizen of Google. I still wont have voting rights but at least they have decent chefs.

We need to create an open, transparent and accountable democratic government. One that looks after our common needs. We need to streamline our government to cut out unnecessary waste or pointless red tape.

 

[w1z4rd]

Listen, ghoti. You can try to put words in other people's mouths (which is par for the course for those who see themselves as the authentic interpreters of the political economy), but your snide condescension only redounds to the narrowness of your own weltanschauung.

lol, whole sentence dedicated to insulting me.

<snip funny justification>

Your way of seeing the world isn't the only way, ghoti.

I totally know. I totally accept I may be wrong and empirical evidence has often changed my opinion in the past. Ive been wrong a lot. Empirical evidence has corrected my bull****

Ive believed incorrectly many times. I used to be religious, I was superstitious, I believed in Swart Gevaar, I was indoctrinated. Since I have been lied to so much by my society... I double and triple check my beliefs and ideologies all the time and I dont stop testing them!

Right now I am doing economic in my degree. The stuff they are teaching is the stuff I talk about here. I am not a radical, Im working with academic mainstream stuff. Im working with the empirical evidence. The stuff you say. Doesnt have supporting empirical evidence. I only have your opinion that its going to be awesomesauce if we do things your way.

I wish you or the commies were right. It would be like the easy way out. Im happy for anyones Utopia if any of you buggers can get it right, but in the mean time I have to work in the real world with real world issues.... and in the real world. There are no quick fixes to Utopia, and no one has all the answers.

 

[Paul Hjul]

^^ this ....

why do we need more laws??
I say that all laws should have an expiry date, so that after a certain period, they are forced to be reviewed.

You missing the point - this isn't a new law. It is a revision on an old law (A 1975 law) which has some potential flaws and some big political decisions.

The Bill is a thousand times better than most of what is happening in the legislating sphere at the moment (business licensing bill, protection of corruption bill, failure to impeach mr showerhead ...) but it isn't perfect and it needs informed criticism

 

[Arthur]

Right now I am doing economic in my degree. The stuff they are teaching is the stuff I talk about here. I am not a radical, Im working with academic mainstream stuff. Im working with the empirical evidence. The stuff you say. Doesnt have supporting empirical evidence. I only have your opinion that its going to be awesomesauce if we do things your way.

I can't speak for the current situation, but in my day at university there wasn't a South African university whose Economics departments weren't deeply soaked in Keynesianism. They were all anti-capitalist to a man. Like Hitler and the commies, they shared a scorn for the Freedom Lovers, starting with Bastiat all the way through Hayek, Mises, and all the great defenders of economic liberty.

I am very well aware that my views are very much the minority position. But as you rightly pointed out to someone else in another discussion, arguments from majority or authority are not compelling. The majority can be wrong, and often are on crucial issues. Economists are no exception.

I wish you or the commies were right. It would be like the easy way out. Im happy for anyones Utopia if any of you buggers can get it right, but in the mean time I have to work in the real world with real world issues.... and in the real world. There are no quick fixes to Utopia, and no one has all the answers.

That's just where we differ. I and my fellow free-marketeers have no desire whatsoever to prescribe things for other people. We do not wish to impose policies, budgets, views and assorted prescriptions for Utopia on anyone. All we want is that the State get out of the way and allow people to live their lives.

We have no political ambitions, and are deeply suspicious of people who do. More harm has been done by do-gooders than almost anyone else. Hitler believed he was doing good. So did Lenin. And Pol Pot, and Verwoerd, and all the rest of the Great Engineers of Utopia. We reject that.

 

[w1z4rd]

I can't speak for the current situation, but in my day at university there wasn't a South African university whose Economics departments weren't deeply soaked in Keynesianism. They were all anti-capitalist to a man. Like Hitler and the commies, they shared a scorn for the Freedom Lovers, starting with Bastiat all the way through Hayek, Mises, and all the great defenders of economic liberty.

Where those the days biologists were still referred to as darwinists? Look, Im sure the earths crust was a lot hotter back then, but these days economics has become an empirical science. Ask me, some of this stuff gives me a headache learning.

Freedom lover, lol. Everyone knows you cant have freedom without taking away freedom. For person A to have the freedom to live, psychopath B must be put in jail. A freedom was taken away to give a freedom. Thats why some of the most free markets are the best regulated ones. They make sure that all the little companies play nicely with all the big psychopathic predator companies. A freedom is taken away (the right for a predator company to form a monopoly) to give a freedom (give breathing room to young small companies that drive a massive portion of the economy)

I am very well aware that my views are very much the minority position. But as you rightly pointed out to someone else in another discussion, arguments from majority or authority are not compelling. The majority can be wrong, and often are on crucial issues. Economists are no exception.

I totally get that. I have minority beliefs like my lack of religious beliefs. That still doesnt make you any more right. Again, I have to fall back to empirical evidence.

That's just where we differ. I and my fellow free-marketeers have no desire whatsoever to prescribe things for other people. We do not wish to impose policies, budgets, views and assorted prescriptions for Utopia on anyone. All we want is that the State get out of the way and allow people to live their lives.

Rubbish, you wish you could prescribe your ideology on us if you could. Whether we like it or not.

We have no political ambitions, and are deeply suspicious of people who do. More harm has been done by do-gooders than almost anyone else. Hitler believed he was doing good. So did Lenin. And Pol Pot, and Verwoerd, and all the rest of the Great Engineers of Utopia. We reject that.

Dont BS, you guys have plenty of political ambition. There are plenty of liberal parties around the world with right wing libertarian beliefs. Unless you are talking about a friday night conspiracy club and Glen Beck talk show session. Then yeah, I could understand the lack of political ambition.

 

[Techne]

Information bill.
Rob Davies' (member of the SA Communist party, no surprise there) business bill.
And now this.

SA is fast becoming a leftist, statist heaven.

 

[Techne]

Dont BS, you guys have plenty of political ambition. There are plenty of liberal parties around the world with right wing libertarian beliefs.

The biggest BS is any person who believe a Libertarian is after governmental power.