Tim Noakes diet is 'criminal'

[Sinbad]

Wading into this here...
3 months of Noakes "snake oil"
10kgs lost
Cholesterol down by 1.
Blood glucose down 1
Also able to do more exercise and got my 5km time under 30 minutes.

Come on dude it's obviously all water loss, and the testing was done by a "quack" who got it wrong


/sarcasm

 

[Jola]

And a "dietician" is less qualified than a DM, MBChB?
you have a very fluid definition of "quack"

What does an anaesthetist know about nutrition, since you're so keen on specialisations and are also keen on pointing out how they think he's wrong?

What does anaesthetists have to do with this ?

And yes, a dietician would have more relevant qualifications than Noakes.

 

[Sinbad]

Not really. Just anesthesiologists, surgeons, clinical researchers and internal medicine specialists that don't want their patients dying.

What does anaesthetists have to do with this ?

And yes, a dietician would have more relevant qualifications than Noakes.

Sorry not your quote, but you did just invalidate Messugga's argument

 

[Sinbad]

Anyway, I guess my point is this:

Tim's way of eating works for some people, and works VERY WELL.
If they monitor their cholesterol, blood sugar, pressure, etc (LIKE ANYONE SHOULD) they will live long and healthy lives. Chances are, if they're doing it right, the'll never have a problem with any of these that's caused by the diet.

It doesn't work for others - and that's just fine too.

Calling it criminal is just plain wrong though.

 

[Messugga]

Sorry not your quote, but you did just invalidate Messugga's argument

They're responsible for keeping you alive on the table. Your general state of health is rather important to them.

 

[copacetic]

The MBChB is a bachelors degree, and the DSc is in Exercise Science.

No relevant qualifications to take on the cardiologists, etc, etc.

As far as I understand it, he's a qualified medical doctor, which was all I was responding to (the misapprehension that he is not).

As for 'no relevant qualifications'. Well, okay - By that logic, not a one of us (I suspect) has grounds to hold an opinion on this matter.

 

[Jola]

If they monitor their cholesterol, blood sugar, pressure, etc (LIKE ANYONE SHOULD)...

Many of them, and I know a few, don't.

That diet should be taken at most for a month or two, and then under strict medical supervision.

It is dangerous, and can be regarded as criminal if not taken under strict medical supervision.

Even proponents of LCHF in the medical literature agree with that.

 

[Sinbad]

Many of them, and I know a few, don't.

That diet should be taken at most for a month or two, and then under strict medical supervision.

It is dangerous, and can be regarded as criminal if not taken under strict medical supervision.

Even proponents of LCHF in the medical literature agree with that.

It's not dangerous if it's done properly. And if you're sneaking carbs (the dangerous part), you're not doing LCHF now are you?

Your opinions are noted, and discarded on the basis of my life experience.

 

[copacetic]

What on earth is dangerous about it, and where is the literature that suggests this?

I've been doing it for 8 months now, and feel better than I have in years. Is there something I should be concerned about?

 

[Jola]

As for 'no relevant qualifications'. Well, okay - By that logic, not a one of us (I suspect) has grounds to hold an opinion on this matter.

We did not write books encouraging people to go the snake oil route.

But I am sure that we can have opinions

 

[Sinbad]

What on earth is dangerous about it, and where is the literature that suggests this?

I've been doing it for 8 months now, and feel better than I have in years. Is there something I should be concerned about?

Yeah. Doctors and dieticians everywhere are going to want to beat you to death Anaesthetists might refuse to treat you in case your ketones infect their mask!

 

[Jola]

What on earth is dangerous about it, and where is the literature that suggests this?

I was involved in a long argument with MOB about this and researched this at the time. Not going to do all of this over again, look on MyBB, it is all here.

But there is a serious risk of at least kidney damage. Can't even remember all the other stuff.

Suffice to say, should only be done under strict medical supervision. Usually short-term, for obesity.

 

[Sinbad]

I was involved in a long argument with MOB about this and researched this at the time. Not going to do all of this over again, look on MyBB, it is all here.

But there is a serious risk of at least kidney damage. Can't even remember all the other stuff.

Suffice to say, should only be done under strict medical supervision. Usually short-term, for obesity.

Bull****.

A member of a community I was part of, doing LCHF, actually saw his kidney damage (proteinurea) reversed while eating that way.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-93774.html

 

[KalMaverick]

Have any of you guys read Nina Teicholz's The Big Fat Surprise?

You would be surprised at how nutritionists (those some of you would believe blindly) have made various leaps of faith decades ago and we're still seeing the results of that bad judgement today.

Look at the inuit, the masai and various other cultures where fruits and vegetables are not their normal food but meat and fat.

 

[Jola]

Have any of you guys read Nina Teicholz's The Big Fat Surprise?

You would be surprised at how nutritionists (those some of you would believe blindly) have made various leaps of faith decades ago and we're still seeing the results of that bad judgement today.

Look at the inuit, the masai and various other cultures where fruits and vegetables are not their normal food but meat and fat.

You can't really compare those, the Masai eat a lot of grains (high carbs), and drink blood. Also, what is their life expectancy ?

You would have to look at a study of these groups, you can't just quote them like that.

 

[copacetic]

I was involved in a long argument with MOB about this and researched this at the time. Not going to do all of this over again, look on MyBB, it is all here.

But there is a serious risk of at least kidney damage. Can't even remember all the other stuff.

Suffice to say, should only be done under strict medical supervision. Usually short-term, for obesity.

I'm just going to point out that you made a pretty bold statement, and offered absolutely ZERO evidence to back it up when asked to do so.

So, no, not 'suffice to say'. You've offered absolutely nothing but what appears to be an unfounded opinion. It's not my job to trawl around looking for your so-called evidence.

I sound a bit tetchy - I'm not really - You're not obligated to provide evidence, and I don't mind whether you do or not (although I am curious to know what is dangerous about being in ketosis [my suspicion is that you are confusing nutritional ketosis with ketoacidosis].

I just want it apparent in the thread that these rather extreme claims are not being backed up in any manner at all.

 

[Sinbad]

You can't really compare those, the Masai eat a lot of grains (high carbs), and drink blood. Also, what is their life expectancy ?

You would have to look at a study of these groups, you can't just quote them like that.

Traditionally, the Maasai diet consisted of raw meat, raw milk, and raw blood from cattle. Note that the Maasai cattle are of the Zebu variety. In the summer of 1935 Dr. Weston A. Price visited the Maasai and reported that according to Dr. Anderson from the local government hospital in Kenya most tribes were disease-free. Many had not a single tooth attacked by dental caries nor a single malformed dental arch. In particular the Maasai had a very low 0.4% of tooth caries. He attributed that to their diet consisting of (in order of volume) raw milk, raw blood, raw meat and some vegetables and fruits, although in many villages they do not eat any fruit or vegetables at all. He noted that when available every growing child and every pregnant or lactating woman would receive a daily ration of raw blood. Dr. Weston A. Price also noted the government efforts back in 1935 to turn the Maasai into farmers. An ILCA study (Nestel 1989) states: "Today, the staple diet of the Maasai consists of cow's milk and maize-meal. The former is largely drunk fresh or in sweet tea and the latter is used to make a liquid or solid porridge. The solid porridge is known as ugali and is eaten with milk; unlike the liquid porridge, ugali is not prepared with milk. Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans. Butter is also an important infant food."[82]
Studies by the International Livestock Centre for Africa (Bekure et al. 1991) shows a very great change in the diet of the Maasai towards non-livestock products with maize comprising 12 – 39 percent and sugar 8 – 13 percent; about one litre of milk is consumed per person daily. Most of the milk is consumed as fermented milk or buttermilk - a by-product of butter making. Milk consumption figures are very high by any standards. The needs for protein and essential amino acids are more than adequately satisfied. However, the supply of iron, niacin, vitamin C, vitamin A, thiamine and energy are never fully met by a purely milk diet. Due to changing circumstances, especially the seasonal nature of the milk supply and frequent droughts, most pastoralists, including the Maasai, now include substantial amounts of grain in their diets.[83][84]
The Maasai herd goats and sheep, including the Red Maasai sheep, as well as the more prized cattle.[85] Electrocardiogram tests applied to 400 young adult male Maasai found no evidence whatsoever of heart disease, abnormalities or malfunction. Further study with carbon-14 tracers showed that the average cholesterol level was about 50 percent of that of an average American. These findings were ascribed to the amazing fitness of morans, which was evaluated as "Olympic standard".[86]
Soups are probably the most important use of plants for food by Maasai. Acacia nilotica is the most frequently used soup plant. The root or stem bark is boiled in water and the decoction drunk alone or added to soup. The Maasai are fond of taking this as a drug, and is known to make them energetic, aggressive and fearless. Maasai eat soup laced with bitter bark and roots containing cholesterol-lowering saponins; those urban Maasai who don't have access to the bitter plants tend to develop heart disease.[87] Although consumed as snacks, fruits constitute a major part of the food ingested by children and women looking after cattle as well as morans in the wilderness.[88]

-- Wikipedia
So, since their diet change, many of the urban Masai develop heart disease. When they mainly ate meat, milk and blood they were uncommonly healthy.

OK then.

 

[Galactica]

Nope

not big pharma at all. Big agriculture. Grain farming.
Medical specialists are not willingly part of it - they go by what they're taught...

So this conspiracy?

 

[Jola]

I'm just going to point out that you made a pretty bold statement, and offered absolutely ZERO evidence to back it up when asked to do so.

Do what you wish, a repeat of this argument is on MyBB, and all the evidence is there. Funny enough, it was an medical research article provided by MOB that provided direct evidence of all the dangers of the LCHF diet.

I'm not going through all this again, and am quite happy that you go on quoting your quacks as evidence of your BS theories.

 

[copacetic]

Do what you wish, a repeat of this argument is on MyBB, and all the evidence is there. Funny enough, it was an medical research article provided by MOB that provided direct evidence of all the dangers of the LCHF diet.

I'm not going through all this again, and am quite happy that you go on quoting your quacks as evidence of your BS theories.

I didn't quote anyone, nor did I lay claim to any particular theory, let's be clear on that.

You're the second person in the past week to tell me how deadly this diet is, and the second person in the past week to not provide evidence of the claim. I find this strange, as I hesitate to hold any opinions without at least having some semblance of accessible evidence on hand (or in-head, as it were) in order to be rational about holding that opinion as an evidence based fact, rather than an ignorant and emotionally driven belief.

Surely you realise that 'check the forum, the answer is there somewhere', is a cop-out of the highest order? I'm (sort-of) willing to read through the thread in question (since I am apparently in terrible danger), but at least do the courtesy of pointing in the right direction?