Tony Leon to Quit

[DigitalSoldier]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20061129025854642C759126

Patricia de Lille as new DA leader

 

[DigitalSoldier]

DA leader Tony Leon's announcement that he would step down in 2007 is an admission that he failed to make the party pro-poor and pro-black, Western Cape premier Ebrahim Rasool has said.

Agreed Tony Leon failed in making the party pro-poor or pro-black but how is that different from the anc ? that got their own native club for black people only ?

 

[Alan]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20061129025854642C759126

Patricia de Lille as new DA leader

 

[kilo39]

DA leader Tony Leon's announcement that he would step down in 2007 is an admission that he failed to make the party pro-poor and pro-black, Western Cape premier Ebrahim Rasool has said.

Agreed Tony Leon failed in making the party pro-poor or pro-black but how is that different from the anc ? that got their own native club for black people only ?

Nah DigitalSoldier, you got that wrong: ... their own native club for connected black people only.

 

[Too Good]

Your expectations are too high: fact, nowadays, there is little difference (in 1st world democracies) between the policies of the left and right (one is more socialist leaning than another but both support the tenets of capitalism.) There is no alternative policy (anywhere in the world besides full blown socialism.) And any socialist policy (or for that matter capitalist policy) requires checks and balances as a fundamental theme: could go so far as to say this is the alternative policy: some respect for the rule of law and accounting procedure.

I have to admit you make a good point, but if you have been following my commentary on this thread, u will see, originally I was and am not advocating that the DA should have an alternative policy, but I was pointing out that it does not have it. The point is that many of DA supporters do not support it for its unique policies, but for their belief that it protects their interests (ie white interests) and for it to survive the new leader should be someone who will re-enforce that perception.

 

[kilo39]

I have to admit you make a good point, but if you have been following my commentary on this thread, u will see, originally I was and am not advocating that the DA should have an alternative policy, but I was pointing out that it does not have it. The point is that many of DA supporters do not support it for its unique policies, but for their belief that it protects their interests (ie white interests) and for it to survive the new leader should be someone who will re-enforce that perception.

Sorry dude I just totally disagree with you. Your statement "protects their interests" is completely wrong. The DA may have become the haven for (some) lost peeps (but they could always vote FF or whoever) so I would hope all voting DA know the white legacy is an outcome of history, not of philosophy - and any talk of black, white is a throwback to a previous time (was never part of the philosophic conversation in any manner or form) so to suggest the DA is somehow a white party (or protects white interests) is disingenuous at best and derisory at worst.

 

[Too Good]

Sorry dude I just totally disagree with you. Your statement "protects their interests" is completely wrong. The DA may have become the haven for (some) lost peeps (but they could always vote FF or whoever) so I would hope all voting DA know the white legacy is an outcome of history, not of philosophy - and any talk of black, white is a throwback to a previous time (was never part of the philosophic conversation in any manner or form) so to suggest the DA is somehow a white party (or protects white interests) is disingenuous at best and derisory at worst.

Many South Africa including DA supporters agree that there is a perception that the DA is protecting "white interests", people including those participatin in this discussion are suggesting that Seremane should become the next DA president in order to rid that perception. A lot of people are not in disagreement about the percetion, they might disagree about the reality of the mater. What I am suggesting is that the stigma the DA has is not necessarily a liability ,but it could be its biggest asset. Think about it, if we agree that the policies of the DA are not that different from those of the ANC, then what sets it apart. An if we agree that they fundamentally believe in the same things we should also say the ANC is not different from the DA, the difference is in leadership, so that ANC in theory can produce a leader like Tony Leon, that would be big on crime, corruption, maladministration and any other things Tony Leon would have done (except in maters such as BEE) with out compromising on any point in the ANC's constitution.

 

[Angelo]

DA's dilemma

And that is the challenge. How does the DA address fears of whites who see affirmative action as driving them out of jobs, and meet the expectation of blacks who need to benefit from employment equity?

It is not an easy balance. But getting it right might revive the fortunes of any party that seeks to challenge the ANC’s political hegemony.

The plan going forward should not be about how the DA refashions itself to con black people into voting for it. It should not be cosmetic changes that seek to attract blacks on the basis of form rather than content.

The DA needs a total metamorphosis. It must change from a swart-gevaar caterpillar to a *multi-coloured butterfly.

http://www.news24.com/City_Press/Columnists/0,,186-1695_2039230,00.html

 

[Skeptik]

Oh, let's just admit that the ANC don't want oppositional politics in this country. They believe it isn't the 'African way'. I wonder just how much corruption, nepotism, and pure theft we would see in parliament if there were no opposition?

The ANC is immature and needs to be chaperoned.

 

[Debbie]

Another reason for Tony Leon to step down is the whole 'internal democracy' within political parties thing, you know, limited terms and other such democratic staples.

I can't help but have some admiration for the guy- he's shown strength in many ways.

 

[NewsFlash]

He must have realised, as many here on the forum, that this country is a lost case and no help or advise can change it. The only opposition Angelo and his soul-mates want is No opposition at all. Maybe they are right, then this country can have another Gaddafi!

 

[Skeptik]

I think the ANC are relieved not to have to listen to criticism. It takes a lot to have to be told where you are going wrong all the time. I'm sure to the average Xhosa elder, this British style of politics is an anethema.

The Xhosa and other black African tribes have accepted Western style of economics, fashion, technology, education, so I wonder why they resist acceptance of democracy, the rule of law and oppositional politics?

 

[xtermin8or]

@ Skeptik - what absolute drivel -

It was the black man who brought democracy to this country - period -

 

[Debbie]

@ Skeptik - what absolute drivel -

It was the black man who brought democracy to this country - period -

In all fairness xtermin8or, is this what you would call 'democracy'?

 

[Tassidar]

In all fairness xtermin8or, is this what you would call 'democracy'?

Yeah, I would agree. The only way to test if you have a working democracy, is for the ruling party to be voted out of power. Until then, there is little distinguising a democracy from a benevolent dictatorship.

 

[xtermin8or]

Yes we do live in a democracy, for the benefit of most of you who seem to not uderstand what a democracy is, this explanation of our form of democracy - representative democracy - from Wiki

Representative democracy is a form of democracy founded on the exercise of popular sovereignty by the people's representatives. The representatives supposedly act in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representative—i.e., not necessarily always according to wishes, but with enough authority to exercise initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or only proxy representatives.

The representatives are chosen by voters in free, secret-ballot, multi-party elections. While existing representative democracies hold such elections to choose representatives, in theory other methods, such as sortition, could be used instead

The fact that your chosen party is not the ruling party, does not mean that it is not a democracy. The fact is that your chosen party - if not the ruling party - is in opposition and should represent your views - if the party you chose is too inefficient, lazy, or incapable to do this - also does not mean it is not a democracy

 

[Tassidar]

Yes we do live in a democracy, for the benefit of most of you who seem to not uderstand what a democracy is, this explanation of our form of democracy - representative democracy - from Wiki

The fact that your chosen party is not the ruling party, does not mean that it is not a democracy. The fact is that your chosen party - if not the ruling party - is in opposition and should represent your views - if the party you chose is too inefficient, lazy, or incapable to do this - also does not mean it is not a democracy

Xterminator, you are missing the point. Whether or not my party is the ruling party is immaterial to me. Actually, come to mention it, on principle at the moment, I vote for a viable opposition, whoever that may be. I am not bound to any single party.

Yes, we have a democracy in name - so does the DRC. The point is, our democracy has yet to be tested.

Zimbabwe goes through the motions of democracy, yet ZANU has never been voted out of power. Why? Because it is a democracy in name only, and whenever ZANU has been tested, it has resorted to voter intimidation etc... (Not to mention that according to the constitution of Zimbabwe, ZANU automatically gets something like 80 seats (I can't remember the figures exactly, but will find out if you really want to know) before vote counting even starts.

 

[Angelo]

The fact that your chosen party is not the ruling party, does not mean that it is not a democracy.

Very true, for some it will only be a "democracy" if it's a white party in power. And I'm glad these people are in the minority.

 

[Tassidar]

Very true, for some it will only be a "democracy" if it's a white party in power. And I'm glad these people are in the minority.

I think you would find, if you took the trouble to find out, that most whites who remain in this country have accepted that they are never again going to have a white president.

Please note, that this was not a racial debate until you and Xterminator made it one. As usual, you show yourself to be unable to accept white rule, far more than the whites show themselves to be unable to accept black rule. This seems to be the prevailing mentality of the ANC. Am I right?

 

[Debbie]

Yes we do live in a democracy, for the benefit of most of you who seem to not uderstand what a democracy is, this explanation of our form of democracy - representative democracy - from Wiki

The fact that your chosen party is not the ruling party, does not mean that it is not a democracy. The fact is that your chosen party - if not the ruling party - is in opposition and should represent your views - if the party you chose is too inefficient, lazy, or incapable to do this - also does not mean it is not a democracy

xtermin8or, while I do not disagree with this def of democracy, I think it is incomplete. Things like separation of powers; the concept of the 'empty seat of power'; freedom of expression; freedom of association; the drive towards equality of opportunity; accountability; transparency; the meeting of basic needs etc - all these thing too make up what we call 'democracy'.

In theory we have many of these things- but it's not the theory that matters, it's the practice thereof.

Very true, for some it will only be a "democracy" if it's a white party in power. And I'm glad these people are in the minority.

Angelo, by the same token many 'black' people in our country would not conceive of a South African democracy with a white president.....so I think it runs both ways. We are above that sort of stuff in this discussion though, I hope...?