Top 4 bottom 3 prediction thread - EPL and other leagues

[thestaggy]

http://www.premierleague.com/page/Headlines/0,,12306~2441365,00.html

Fergie is being modest.

Due to Tom Cleverley and Phil Jones he has not missed the injured Ferdinand or unfit Carrick and Fabio Capello - England boss - has fallen in love with Jones and certainly has not missed Carrick or Ferdinand at international level. Hell, England did not miss Lampard, Gerard, Carrick or Ferdinand at the weekend as a much younger side looked fluid and energetic. I'll be surprised if Rio is first choice centrehalf by seasons end. Ryan Giggs, the living legend that he is, has appeared twice this season and on both occassions from the bench. Why? Because a certain 26-year old left winger has been is unbelievable form for club and country.

I never once said Chelsea is garbage. I said their squad is old and anyone refuting that is in denial and that it MAY undo them, not neccessarily this season, but it could get worse later. I also pointed out that by comparison Fergie had a number of younger players in line; Cleverley on loan at Wigan, Welbeck on loan at Sunderland and Chris Smalling already signed last season and playing a bit part role but still learning. And he added more youth this off season. Once Gary Neville got the injury bug he could not shake it and Rio looks to be heading the same way. Who's to say that won't happen to Lampard or Cole or Terry? And Just look at their match performance against Norwich. They laboured to that win and the scoreline flattered their performance. Nothing like the energetic maulings the Manchester clubs dished out. And remember how fast Chelsea started last season? On course for a goal scoring record. What happened? They ran out of gas. Coincidence?

 

[thestaggy]

I think you guys are taking the age thing a bit to far. Chelsea had a bit of collapse last year which cost them, but when they got it right they still ended second. Writing them off after 3 games is a bit silly.

I have not written them off per say. What I have said is that I would not be at all surprised if they ran out of gas down the stretch or are exposed against the likes of the two Manchesters and that it is a weakness I see in their title push. At the other end United's young squad may be both a blessing and a disaster waiting to happen as one or two may get a little wobble when it gets tight. And Man City is my title favourite because they look to have the quality depth required to overcome late season injuries. That is what I take out of looking at the respective team's squads. And back to Chelsea I think they'll need to invest heavily to refit their squad for the future. Won't be a problem with Abramovich there though.

 

[smokey]

A quick glance at Chelsea's squad will let you know how old it is. 6 of 8 senior defenders are ''old'' by EPL standards, that will affect the starting XI as well as the squad. And looking through the rest of the squad;

Goalkeepers;
Petr Cech (29), Hilario (35) & Ross Turbull (26) - Goalkeepers can get away with age though
Midfielders;
Michael Essien (28), Frank Lampard (33), Florent Malouda (31) & Raul Meireles (28)
Forwards;
Fernando Torres (27), Didier Drogba (33) & Nicolas Anelka (32)

Young fringe players;
Ramires (24), Juan Mata (23), Jon Obi Mikel (24), Romelu Lukaku (18) & Daniel Sturridge (22).

That team is old. Only 7 of Chelsea's 25 registered players - Premier League rules dictate a maximum squad size of 25 players with the exception of uncapped under-21's - are considered young.

First off... Mikel and Ramires are far from fringe players. You don't include Luiz in there either. Ivanovic and Meireles are in the "just right" age group. Mata is a signing for now, not for the future - we didn't pay 20+ million to develop him, we paid it because he came practically ready made. Drogba was a late bloomer and still has a bit more to give in my opinion. He might not be the Drogba of old, but he is still much better than most of the strikers out there and doesn't need to start every game because we have depth in the striking position at least. Studge was a shoe-in for one of the forward spaces, he didn't play because he was serving out a ban.

The only problem area is Lampard, and that is why we bought Meireles on D-Day. He is there to wean everyone off of Lampard. I really do apologize if my knowledge of the Chelsea squad is not quite on the level yours is, but I'm just a plastic fan who doesn't follow his "club" properly after all.

Oh yeah - I didn't even get into some of our younger players like Lakuka, Josh McEachran, Ryan Bertrand, Pat Van Aanholt, Kukata et al. I could go on, but what do I know?

 

[Stevie G]

no need to be sarcastic about it. he knows more then your own team. you just a smoke screen

 

[smokey]

no need to be sarcastic about it. he knows more then your own team. you just a smoke screen

He knows more about Chelsea than... Chelsea?!?! :wtf: :erm:

EDIT: Why can't people learn the difference between then/than? Then again, your entire post is woeful in that regard.

 

[Stevie G]

no need to be sarcastic about it. he knows more then your own team. you just a smoke screen

 

[smokey]

/facepalm

 

[RexxGrim]

no need to be sarcastic about it. he knows more then your own team. you just a smoke screen

Still doesn't make sense, try again. I know you will get it right. Remember I've got faith in you. Go get them.

 

[fishfly]

- Gary Neville made 3 league appearances last season and announced his immediate retirement in February 2011.
- Scholes made 22 league appearances, of which only 16 were as a starter. Not what you would call a key component.
- As I mentioned goalkeepers can get away with age. Brad Friedel is keeping Spurs' goal at the age of 40. But Fergie learnt from the post-Schmeichel disasters that he needed a young high quality 'keeper immediately, hence de Gea.

So yeah, I'd say it does a pretty solid job in backing my statement that age could undo Chelsea. If not now, within a season or two.

AC Milan won the CL with a "old" team, Inter won the CL with an "old" team.
Every team last season hit a snag with regards to "running out of gas" the world cup had an affect plus players form has an effect
Age does not replace quality as you've seen with Giggs, Del Piero, Maldini, Seedorf, van Bronkhorst, Puyol, etc

Strange how you use the argument that Chelsea is "old" it might not affect them this season but within the next season or two??? If the players are old, sure Chelsea will buy players to replace them - there's a Jan transfer window, there's the end of season transfer window, but you seem to think because of age Chelsea won't be any challenge.

 

[thestaggy]

AC Milan won the CL with a "old" team, Inter won the CL with an "old" team.
Every team last season hit a snag with regards to "running out of gas" the world cup had an affect plus players form has an effect
Age does not replace quality as you've seen with Giggs, Del Piero, Maldini, Seedorf, van Bronkhorst, Puyol, etc

Strange how you use the argument that Chelsea is "old" it might not affect them this season but within the next season or two??? If the players are old, sure Chelsea will buy players to replace them - there's a Jan transfer window, there's the end of season transfer window, but you seem to think because of age Chelsea won't be any challenge.

Tell me what the Milan's reliance on old squads done for the Italian national team? Oh yeah, a feeble attempt at defending their World Cup crown. The Italian public had been all over the selectors for sending an ancient Italian squad to South Africa. Let us also keep in mind the brand of football. Italian football is very dour, very defensive. It lacks the flash and flair of Spain and is played at nowhere near the tempo of the English Premier League nor is it anywhere near as physical as the English or German leagues.

And what did Inter and AC do in last seasons Champions league? Tottenham put 7 goals passed Inter, beating them twice in the group stages. AC scraped out of their group with 8 points, managing two wins, both of which came against mighty AJ Auxerre of France, who finished stone last. Spurs, Champions League debutants, also dumped AC out in the Round of 16 and Schalke 04 thrashed Inter 7-3 over two legs in the quarters.

United have had Park Ji-Sung and Nani for the past few seasons, both of whom are capable of covering for Giggs. Giggs is class, but Fergie knows he cannot play 90 minutes for 38 games and foresaw that happening. And now throw Ashley Young in, a more natural replacement for Giggs. And by the way, as classy as Giggs is, he has not started yet this season because of Young's presence and they have not missed him. Sure, I suppose Chelsea will probably go out and buy Man City style, snapping up 4-5 high quality, ready made players that will go straight in.

 

[smokey]

Tell me what the Milan's reliance on old squads done for the Italian national team? Oh yeah, a feeble attempt at defending their World Cup crown. The Italian public had been all over the selectors for sending an ancient Italian squad to South Africa. Let us also keep in mind the brand of football. Italian football is very dour, very defensive. It lacks the flash and flair of Spain and is played at nowhere near the tempo of the English Premier League nor is it anywhere near as physical as the English or German leagues.

And what did Inter and AC do in last seasons Champions league? Tottenham put 7 goals passed Inter, beating them twice in the group stages. AC scraped out of their group with 8 points, managing two wins, both of which came against mighty AJ Auxerre of France, who finished stone last. Spurs, Champions League debutants, also dumped AC out in the Round of 16 and Schalke 04 thrashed Inter 7-3 over two legs in the quarters.

United have had Park Ji-Sung and Nani for the past few seasons, both of whom are capable of covering for Giggs. Giggs is class, but Fergie knows he cannot play 90 minutes for 38 games and foresaw that happening. And now throw Ashley Young in, a more natural replacement for Giggs. And by the way, as classy as Giggs is, he has not started yet this season because of Young's presence and they have not missed him. Sure, I suppose Chelsea will probably go out and buy Man City style, snapping up 4-5 high quality, ready made players that will go straight in.

/facepalm

We bought Mata.

We have Josh McEachran.

We have Nathaniel Chalobah.

We have Sturridge.

We bought Lakuku [sic]

We bought Oriol Romeu.

Mikel is 24.

We have Luiz.

Kukata[sic] has gone on loan to Bolton, look what Coyle did for Sturridge and Wilshere.

Thibaut Courtois has gone to Valencia on a longer term loan and is a shoe-in to start.

I'm not gonna comment too much on Ulises Davila, as I really don't know much about him.

We have Billy Clifford and Pat Van Aanholt as backups to Ashley Cole, with PVA going out on loan and Clifford set to get quite a few games because A. Cole has said he doesn't mind being benched in favour of youth development and hopes that it will extend his career.

If you think we are going the way of AC Milan, you are sorely mistaken.

EDIT: As for the Italian national team and AC Milan... there's a saying in Italy. A strong Juve team means a strong Italy team. Milan has never really been a club for Italy's best and brightest.

 

[Stickfigure]

If you think we are going the way of AC Milan, you are sorely mistaken.

They did win the Champions League twice in 4 years But their squad was quite a lot younger those 2 times than what it is now :/

 

[fishfly]

Tell me what the Milan's reliance on old squads done for the Italian national team? Oh yeah, a feeble attempt at defending their World Cup crown. The Italian public had been all over the selectors for sending an ancient Italian squad to South Africa. Let us also keep in mind the brand of football. Italian football is very dour, very defensive. It lacks the flash and flair of Spain and is played at nowhere near the tempo of the English Premier League nor is it anywhere near as physical as the English or German leagues.

And what did Inter and AC do in last seasons Champions league? Tottenham put 7 goals passed Inter, beating them twice in the group stages. AC scraped out of their group with 8 points, managing two wins, both of which came against mighty AJ Auxerre of France, who finished stone last. Spurs, Champions League debutants, also dumped AC out in the Round of 16 and Schalke 04 thrashed Inter 7-3 over two legs in the quarters.

United have had Park Ji-Sung and Nani for the past few seasons, both of whom are capable of covering for Giggs. Giggs is class, but Fergie knows he cannot play 90 minutes for 38 games and foresaw that happening. And now throw Ashley Young in, a more natural replacement for Giggs. And by the way, as classy as Giggs is, he has not started yet this season because of Young's presence and they have not missed him. Sure, I suppose Chelsea will probably go out and buy Man City style, snapping up 4-5 high quality, ready made players that will go straight in.

You mixing different time lines to justify your statement.

I'm trying to say having "old" players age 28-33 does not make your team OLD but if you want lets do this:

1. Italy's brand of football coupled with old players won the world cup 2006
2. Italy's world cup 2010 consisted of how many injured players and how many young defenders?
3. What does Milan's 2010/2011 season have anything to do with Italy's 2010 world cup? Milan's players consist of foreigners.
4. Milan won the CL in 2007/2008 season (my reference of Maldini aged 39) with the same OLD team as 2006/2007 season.
5. Your listing of Inter Milan getting dribbled by Tottenham last season does not make up the fact Inter Milan won the CL the previous year with a similar oldish squad - difference is Mou as wasn't the Coach.

Italy's squad consisted of the following players and the average age on the team was 28 at the World Cup 2010 - Pirlo, the creative playmaker injured, Gattuso there as a mascot, Buffon Injured.

Gianluigi Buffon 28 January 1978 (aged 32)
Federico Marchetti 7 February 1983 (aged 27)
Morgan De Sanctis 27 March 1977 (aged 33)
Salvatore Bocchetti 30 November 1986 (aged 23)
Leonardo Bonucci 1 May 1987 (aged 23)
Fabio Cannavaro (c) 13 September 1973 (aged 36)
Giorgio Chiellini 14 August 1984 (aged 25)
Domenico Criscito 30 December 1986 (aged 23)
Christian Maggio 11 February 1982 (aged 28)
Gianluca Zambrotta 19 February 1977 (aged 33)
Mauro Camoranesi 4 October 1976 (aged 33)
Daniele De Rossi 24 July 1983 (aged 26)
Gennaro Gattuso 9 January 1978 (aged 32)
Claudio Marchisio 19 January 1986 (aged 24)
Riccardo Montolivo 18 January 1985 (aged 25)
Angelo Palombo 25 September 1981 (aged 28)
Simone Pepe 30 August 1983 (aged 26)
Andrea Pirlo 19 May 1979 (aged 31)
Antonio Di Natale 13 February 1979 (aged 31)
Alberto Gilardino 5 July 1982 (aged 27)
Vincenzo Iaquinta 21 November 1979 (aged 30)
Giampaolo Pazzini 2 August 1984 (aged 25)
Fabio Quagliarella 31 January 1983 (aged 27)

How does any of your statements justify having a old team now will fail 2 seasons later?

 

[thestaggy]

/facepalm

We bought Mata.

We have Josh McEachran.

We have Nathaniel Chalobah.

We have Sturridge.

We bought Lakuku [sic]

We bought Oriol Romeu.

Mikel is 24.

We have Luiz.

Kukata[sic] has gone on loan to Bolton, look what Coyle did for Sturridge and Wilshere.

Thibaut Courtois has gone to Valencia on a longer term loan and is a shoe-in to start.

I'm not gonna comment too much on Ulises Davila, as I really don't know much about him.

We have Billy Clifford and Pat Van Aanholt as backups to Ashley Cole, with PVA going out on loan and Clifford set to get quite a few games because A. Cole has said he doesn't mind being benched in favour of youth development and hopes that it will extend his career.

If you think we are going the way of AC Milan, you are sorely mistaken.

Could you name a young squad right away that has the ability to be competitive? And not loanees.

GK - Does not really matter as older 'keepers are generally a better option.

RB - Branislav Ivanovic (27)
CB - David Luiz (24) Is he injured? Because he has not figured in the Premier League yet this term.
CB - Alex (29)
LB - Ryan Bertrand (22) Villas-Boas reckons he is Cole's long term replacement.

RM - Ramires (24)
DM - Jon Obi Mikel (24)/Michael Essien (28) Either or. Essien is not old.
LM - Josh McEachran (18)

RW - Daniel Sturridge (22)
CF - Romelu Lukaku (18)/Ferando Torres (27) Either or. Torres is not old and Chelsea will still try and get returns on their 50 mil.
LW - Juan Mata (23)

That's the strongest ''youth'' squad I can come up with using Chelsea's preferred 4-3-3 formation. Do you think it would compete for top honours in England? I'd say the defence and midfield may have a few soft spots. Bertrand is definitely unproven at the top level, with all his first team playing being done in lower leagues. Ramires has not convinced me and McEachran has not feautured this season and so most of his recent game time was late last season.

This would be a good comparison against United's recent first choice XI of;

RB - Chris Smalling (21)
CB - Phil Jones (19)
CB - Johnny Evans (23)
LB - Patrice Evra (30)

RW - Nani (24)
CM - Tom Cleverley (22)
CM - Anderson (23)
LW - Ashley Young (26)

FW - Wayne Rooney (25)
FW - Danny Welbeck (20)

 

[Helghast]

A quick glance at Chelsea's squad will let you know how old it is. 6 of 8 senior defenders are ''old'' by EPL standards, that will affect the starting XI as well as the squad. And looking through the rest of the squad;

Goalkeepers;
Petr Cech (29), Hilario (35) & Ross Turbull (26) - Goalkeepers can get away with age though
Midfielders;
Michael Essien (28), Frank Lampard (33), Florent Malouda (31) & Raul Meireles (28)
Forwards;
Fernando Torres (27), Didier Drogba (33) & Nicolas Anelka (32)

Young fringe players;
Ramires (24), Juan Mata (23), Jon Obi Mikel (24), Romelu Lukaku (18) & Daniel Sturridge (22).

That team is old. Only 7 of Chelsea's 25 registered players - Premier League rules dictate a maximum squad size of 25 players with the exception of uncapped under-21's - are considered young.

No need to be sarcastic either and quite frankly you're not much of a fan if you do not know the state of your squad. Guus Hiddink was already saying this in 2009. Chelsea need to get younger. This is not a thumb suck. Fergie saw it coming and viola, just as van der Sar, Scholes and Neville head out and with Giggs heading into his final year, in come de Gea, Tom Cleverely, Phil Jones, Ashley Young & Chris Smalling, all of whom but de Gea have Premier League experience. Every opponent of Chelsea in the EPL has pointed out their weakness being age. Yes, youthful exuberance might undo Manchester United, but their future is a lot rosier than Chelsea's.

You do realise all those people came in this year or last... Chelsea have young investements alredy there in line to take over, the way you make it out to be is that there are no chelsea youngsters waiting to play and since we didn't buy many youngsters there are no youngsters at the club. Don't you worry we have youngsters who are going to play. Boas and the rest of Chelsea know it's time to put youngsters in, and that's what Boas is planning.
Not putting Luiz in the back 4 is a laugh, when he signed last season he played most of the games.
Last season United didn't have a young back four either, Evra, O'shea were there, they aren't spring chickens, as well as Vidic, you had evans but he's young.

 

[Helghast]

AC Milan won the CL with a "old" team, Inter won the CL with an "old" team.
Every team last season hit a snag with regards to "running out of gas" the world cup had an affect plus players form has an effect
Age does not replace quality as you've seen with Giggs, Del Piero, Maldini, Seedorf, van Bronkhorst, Puyol, etc

Strange how you use the argument that Chelsea is "old" it might not affect them this season but within the next season or two??? If the players are old, sure Chelsea will buy players to replace them - there's a Jan transfer window, there's the end of season transfer window, but you seem to think because of age Chelsea won't be any challenge.

Hell Arsenal always die out end of season and they are full of youngsters.

 

[thestaggy]

How does any of your statements justify having a old team now will fail 2 seasons later?

It's pretty obvious. If you do not have young players coming through your ranks you will be in trouble. Just buying when you need is also a risk as there are things like squad harmony and players blending that need to be taken into account. And with the tendency to go foreign there are language barriers. As I said, I never made this up. This is a popular topic and even an ex-Chelsea boss warned Chelsea to get young 2 years ago. This ain't BS. A good manager will always be looking ahead. Fergie did not wait for Neville to say ''Okay, I'm done'' before getting cover. Nor did he do that with Giggs. Guys like Nani, now Young and Smalling and Rafael are ready to play in place of experienced guys. He always knew replacing Scholes would be hard, hence he has 3 very different midfielders in Cleverley, Fletcher and Carrick. Carrick was intended to replace Scholes but he has not really become that player. You think signing Nani was a coincedence with Ronaldo flirting with La Liga?

You are confusing me with your ''Milan'' talk? Milan is short-hand for AC Milan while Inter is short for Inter Milan. Italy's 2010 World Cup squad had 3 players from AC and not one from Inter. Both have been Italy's top clubs for a while now. AC IS old, impacting the national team while yes, Inter is heavily foreign but I was refering to both Milans, not one or the other. You don't think an international team suffers if their best clubs do not help it? There is a massive buzz in England because of the United squad. The national team has long been criticised for using the same ''old'' players. Both in football tactics and in age. The same old dogs rolling out the same old tricks.

 

[Helghast]

Could you name a young squad right away that has the ability to be competitive? And not loanees.

GK - Does not really matter as older 'keepers are generally a better option.

RB - Branislav Ivanovic (27)
CB - David Luiz (24) Is he injured? Because he has not figured in the Premier League yet this term.
CB - Alex (29)
LB - Ryan Bertrand (22) Villas-Boas reckons he is Cole's long term replacement.

RM - Ramires (24)
DM - Jon Obi Mikel (24)/Michael Essien (28) Either or. Essien is not old.
LM - Josh McEachran (18)

RW - Daniel Sturridge (22)
CF - Romelu Lukaku (18)/Ferando Torres (27) Either or. Torres is not old and Chelsea will still try and get returns on their 50 mil.
LW - Juan Mata (23)

That's the strongest ''youth'' squad I can come up with using Chelsea's preferred 4-3-3 formation. Do you think it would compete for top honours in England? I'd say the defence and midfield may have a few soft spots. Bertrand is definitely unproven at the top level, with all his first team playing being done in lower leagues. Ramires has not convinced me and McEachran has not feautured this season and so most of his recent game time was late last season.

This would be a good comparison against United's recent first choice XI of;

RB - Chris Smalling (21)
CB - Phil Jones (19)
CB - Johnny Evans (23)
LB - Patrice Evra (30)

RW - Nani (24)
CM - Tom Cleverley (22)
CM - Anderson (23)
LW - Ashley Young (26)

FW - Wayne Rooney (25)
FW - Danny Welbeck (20)

That Chelsea squad could compete.. what soft spots do you see? Just cos you've never seen Bertrand play (or have you?) doesn't mean he's not good... I didn't see Cleverly play before United so I too could've assumed and said, this guy is going to be a soft spot for opponents.
Luiz and Ivanovic have played together. Front 3 is excellent, midfield Ramires and Mikel/Essien play together regularly and do well and McEachren has played a few games and has done well.

 

[Helghast]

It's pretty obvious. If you do not have young players coming through your ranks you will be in trouble. Just buying when you need is also a risk as there are things like squad harmony and players blending that need to be taken into account. And with the tendency to go foreign there are language barriers. As I said, I never made this up. This is a popular topic and even an ex-Chelsea boss warned Chelsea to get young 2 years ago. This ain't BS. A good manager will always be looking ahead. Fergie did not wait for Neville to say ''Okay, I'm done'' before getting cover. Nor did he do that with Giggs. Guys like Nani, now Young and Smalling and Rafael are ready to play in place of experienced guys. He always knew replacing Scholes would be hard, hence he has 3 very different midfielders in Cleverley, Fletcher and Carrick. Carrick was intended to replace Scholes but he has not really become that player. You think signing Nani was a coincedence with Ronaldo flirting with La Liga?

You are confusing me with your ''Milan'' talk? Milan is short-hand for AC Milan while Inter is short for Inter Milan. Italy's 2010 World Cup squad had 3 players from AC and not one from Inter. Both have been Italy's top clubs for a while now. AC IS old, impacting the national team while yes, Inter is heavily foreign but I was refering to both Milans, not one or the other. You don't think an international team suffers if their best clubs do not help it? There is a massive buzz in England because of the United squad. The national team has long been criticised for using the same ''old'' players. Both in football tactics and in age. The same old dogs rolling out the same old tricks.

Chelsea have the exact same thing, young guys waiting to take over.

 

[thestaggy]

You do realise all those people came in this year or last... Chelsea have young investements alredy there in line to take over, the way you make it out to be is that there are no chelsea youngsters waiting to play and since we didn't buy many youngsters there are no youngsters at the club. Don't you worry we have youngsters who are going to play. Boas and the rest of Chelsea know it's time to put youngsters in, and that's what Boas is planning.
Not putting Luiz in the back 4 is a laugh, when he signed last season he played most of the games.
Last season United didn't have a young back four either, Evra, O'shea were there, they aren't spring chickens, as well as Vidic, you had evans but he's young.

Smalling had already played in Europe with Fulham before and saw action in the League Cup last season, the Champions League and became a regular at the back to cover for injury saddled Ferdinand. He's ready to go. Jones had played almost all over the back and in the midfield for Blackburn and had 35 competitive games under his belt. David de Gea was Atletico Madrid's first choice stopper and has a Europa League and a European Super Cup winner's medal. Tom Cleverley has a full Premier League season as a started under his belt after being on loan at Wigan last season. Ashley Young is a Premier League veteran, even though he is 26. Danny Welbeck is a United boy that had already played for United at senior level before spending a full season on loan in the Premier League with Sunderland. Johnny Evans has been in and out of the United senior squad since 2006 and has two loan spells at Sunderland at Premier League level as well as a stint in Belgium. My entire point is they are young but have experience and are playing NOW. They are not on loan or sitting behind 3 or 4 senior players.

As I already asked, where is Luiz? Is he injured because he has yet to play a single minute of Premiership football this term.