Tramadol

[RiaX]

Exactly my point you are not a chemist, pharmacist or specialist with molecules. I can bet that you won't be able to interpret what you have quoted. Now I'm not insulting you I'm trying to teach you.

Anything that interacts with an opioid receptor is considered a narcotic analgesic or an opioid. Some are not true opioids others are. Some are synthetic others aren't (derivatives of natural compounds).

If you look in the samf tramadol is under the broad heading of opioids. They don't really classify it plain and simply but its put under the section of benzomorphans.

However it behaves like a benzomorphan than a natural opioid. In another thread you asked me to explain what is a "derivative of a derivative" this is a good example.

Although not a purist benzomorphan it behaves like a benzomorphan. This is what is meant by a miscellaneous compound, it can't fit into any specific category so its broadly classified.

A benzomorphan is a synthetic opioid. Now you said you capable of researching. So start with morphine structure and identify the 5 ring structure viz A B C D and E. When u remove ring c and d you get a benzomorphan structure. When you remove just ring d you get a morphian (look at my previous post if you lost). Tramadol doesn't have a d ring but it has a modified c ring so its neither a purist benzomorphan or a morphian, its an inbetweener. Though because of what it does in the body and how it works its correct to say its a benzomorphan type analgesic. (Lipincott's illustrated pharmacology textbook under opioid analgesic place tramadol with the benzomorphans).

Its true you could argue that its a morphian and not a benzomorphan but when you speak of its activity you will make no sense. Neither does the patient asking for advice want all this information its pointless for them. So we say benzomorphan or synthetic opioid as both are correct. Synthetic opioid is a huge class like "arachnid" it doesn't say if its a scorpion or a spider.

 

[Azbubu]

Tramadol? This thread is more like drama, dol!

 

[Nerfherder]

http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/2008/april/2008;11;S133-S153.pdf


OpiOid categOries

Benzomorphans have only pentazocine as a member
of this class. It is an agonist/antagonist with a high
incidence of dysphoria

... bla bla..

Tramadol does not fit in the standard opioid classes. A
unique analgesic, tramadol is an atypical opioid,
a 4-phenyl-piperidine analogue of codeine, with
partial mu agonist activity in addition to central
GABA, catecholamine and serotonergic activities.
Opioids can further be classified by their actions: agonist, agonist/antagonist or partial agonist,
or antagonist. Compounds can have intrinsic affinity and efficacy at receptors, with affinity being a
measure of the “strength of interaction” between a
compound binding to its receptor and efficacy being
a measure of the strength of activity or effect from
this binding at the receptor. An agonist has both
affinity and efficacy; an antagonist has affinity but
no efficacy; a partial agonist has affinity, but only
partial efficacy. Regarding the opioids, the relevant
receptors are the mu, kappa, and delta receptors.
Compounds can have differing degrees of affinity
and efficacy at these various receptors.

Ok, so they are bot opiates but are not the same thing....

then from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-pentazocine.htm

What Is Pentazocine?

....

Pentazocine works by changing how the brain and nervous system react to pain. The drug can be habit-forming and should not be taken for longer than prescribed or in a higher dose. Extended use of the drug tends to lessen its effectiveness.

The base drug of pentazocine is benzomorphan. Pentazocine is often used in conjunction with tramadol to treat post-operative pain. It is also used in conjunction with anesthesia during surgery. The drug was first developed by the Sterling Drug Co.

Same thing... no. Same class... yes.

Work the same... no. Work together... yes.

 

[copacetic]

Again, definitive evidence that Tramadol is not a benzomorphan. ↑

VS:

Exactly my point you are not a chemist, pharmacist or specialist with molecules.

I can bet that you won't be able to interpret what you have quoted.

Now I'm not insulting you I'm trying to teach you.

IE - I'm a dumbass.

Anything that interacts with an opioid receptor is considered a narcotic analgesic or an opioid. Some are not true opioids others are. Some are synthetic others aren't (derivatives of natural compounds).

Not sure what that has to do with the claim that Tramadol is classified as a benzomorphan.

If you look in the samf tramadol is under the broad heading of opioids.

Relevance?

They don't really classify it plain and simply but its put under the section of benzomorphans.

Do they, really? Most importantly though, your claim was:

Secondly tramadol is a benzomorphan

However it behaves like a benzomorphan than a natural opioid. In another thread you asked me to explain what is a "derivative of a derivative" this is a good example.

Although not a purist benzomorphan it behaves like a benzomorphan. This is what is meant by a miscellaneous compound, it can't fit into any specific category so its broadly classified.

All I'm really hearing here is 'it's not classified as a benzomorphan'.

A benzomorphan is a synthetic opioid. Now you said you capable of researching. So start with morphine structure and identify the 5 ring structure viz A B C D and E. When u remove ring c and d you get a benzomorphan structure. When you remove just ring d you get a morphian (look at my previous post if you lost). Tramadol doesn't have a d ring but it has a modified c ring so its neither a purist benzomorphan or a morphian, its an inbetweener. Though because of what it does in the body and how it works its correct to say its a benzomorphan type analgesic. (Lipincott's illustrated pharmacology textbook under opioid analgesic place tramadol with the benzomorphans).

BBB.

I hope your chemistry is better than your grammar. It's a jab yes, but you've taken plenty at me.

Its true you could argue that its a morphian and not a benzomorphan but when you speak of its activity you will make no sense. Neither does the patient asking for advice want all this information its pointless for them. So we say benzomorphan or synthetic opioid as both are correct. Synthetic opioid is a huge class like "arachnid" it doesn't say if its a scorpion or a spider.

I'm not remotely convinced it's a benzomorphan, quite the opposite, in fact. Note, I've not denied there may be a chemical connection between these things (how the hell would I know, and why would I care?) - I was simply responding to your initial claim, which is, despite all your waffling to the contrary, completely incorrect.

***

Sorry I'm being such an arse about this. I'm just a pedantic nitwit, who doesn't like condescending attitudes directed at him.

 

[copacetic]

Tramadol? This thread is more like drama, dol!

 

[RiaX]

snip

only one in the class left standing the rest are banned now for your purist benzomorphans. Also if they belong to a family it doesnt mean they the same thing D: the exact same way. For example you get various beta-lactam antibiotics but their spectrum of activity is different as the structure changes. This occurs with all drugs, change the opioid structure enough and you left with immodium

what I said before still stands if you read it carefully.

@ copa

its not definitive evidence that im wrong, actually it shows everything I said was correct.

If you really want to know, then you have to look at its chemical structure to see why its classified as a benzomorphan. It belongs to that family of drugs even though its not a direct member its a cousin per say. Its one of those dual action drugs that works on a series of pathways from opioid to actylcholine receptors and many more.

Its activity is comparable to codiene in other words similar to that of a low ceiling opioid if you look at its structure you can see the basic structure of an opioid as well.

I dont know when you will understand the concept of an analogue structurally and the classification of its pharmacological action.

 

[copacetic]

I think the following is going to be my last word regarding this verging on the ridiculous matter:

Source:

http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/2008/april/2008;11;S133-S153.pdf

Relevant sections:

 

[RiaX]

lol you saw the same word and thought they the same thing ? :wtf: you missed the word analogue there in your highlighting.... again

Note how tramadol isnt in any of the specific classes and its on its own ? as I said its a cousin.

When you speak to patients (especially technical ones) its still refered as a benzomorphan, why? because of how it works (agonist-antagonist). If someone was to say its an opioid the patient will be afraid to take it (not everyone is a druggie in the world like the internets seems to show). Then you get these type of things coming out:

Tramadol hcl is a synthetic opioid, it acts on the exact same receptors as heroin and morphine.
It is hardcore stuff with. I had a bad experience with it, i took a few a day for a week or so and ended up with 'drug educed pneumonia'

You need a NSAID for tooth pain mixed with a softer synthetic opioid such as codeine. Tramadol is way to strong to take till the extraction and you will **** up your kidneys!

and things like this:

http://hallicino.hubpages.com/hub/Top-6-Cases-Of-Tramadol-Prescription-Abuse

And your drug compliance is lost with that patient. If you look at a the benzomorphans the side-effect profiles and efficacy are far more alike than your proper opioids like morphine.

As tramadol is an inbetweener one could argue if its a benzomorphan (analogue) or its a morphian and both answers would be correct depending on your ability to debate. However the poor person asking about tramadol is not interested in this level of information. This can go on forever like an evolution debate, I will still simplify it to a benzomorphan due to its chemical structure and pharmacological profile. Oh BTW there isnt only ONE benzomorphan, just one not banned and available under that countries law.

knew this was going to happen lol, just for the record I didnt say it was wrong to call it a synthetic opioid (a benzomorphan is a type of opioid anyways), I said:

Go look at a proper pharmacopeia before starting technical nonsense.

Im not conceding the point but I cant explain it any futher without drawing many structures here and im not going to go through the synthesis of morphine to the modification forming codiene to the analogue forming benzomorphans and the derivative creating tramadol, that level of detail is too much work. Each line goes to a host of different drugs, opioids on their own is a 6 month long chemistry class just to understand the chemistry and workings, then another 6 months to study their pharmacology.

 

[LazyLion]

RiaX, if you are indeed a pharmacist, you are not doing very well to establish my trust in pharmacists.

 

[copacetic]

lol you saw the same word and thought they the same thing ? :wtf: you missed the word analogue there in your highlighting.... again

Boy have I dived in over my head, although this is all quite interesting.

If you google 'phenylpiperidine opioids' Tramadol is included in the results on many medicine related sites. On the other hand, it is, as you say, technically unclassified (which has never been an issue - The only thing at play here, I'll remind you again, is the statement by you, that it is classified as a benzomorphan). Nowhere (and I've looked a lot now) is it classified as a benzomorphan. It is either included in the phenylpiperidine opioid class, or miscellaneous/unclassified.

Now, before we go off the rails as to whether it's a phenylpiperidine opioid or not, I'm again simply pointing out that whatever its classification (or lack thereof) it's not under the umbrella of benzomorphans, from every source I can find. The only dissenting voice here is from you, and you've yet to provide a shred of evidence for the one claim I am contesting.

Note how tramadol isnt in any of the specific classes and its on its own ? as I said its a cousin.

No, this is you changing the goalposts. You stated quite specifically that it was classified as a benzomorphan.

When you speak to patients (especially technical ones) its still refered as a benzomorphan, why? because of how it works (agonist-antagonist). If someone was to say its an opioid the patient will be afraid to take it (not everyone is a druggie in the world like the internets seems to show). Then you get these type of things coming out:

Are you saying that all benzomorphan derived drugs are agonist-antagonist? I'm not following you here, as benzomorphan is a chemical compound that leads to a variety of drugs, which have a wide variety of properties in this regard, I'd imagine...

and things like this:

And your drug compliance is lost with that patient. If you look at a the benzomorphans the side-effect profiles and efficacy are far more alike than your proper opioids like morphine.

As tramadol is an inbetweener one could argue if its a benzomorphan (analogue) or its a morphian and both answers would be correct depending on your ability to debate. However the poor person asking about tramadol is not interested in this level of information. This can go on forever like an evolution debate, I will still simplify it to a benzomorphan due to its chemical structure and pharmacological profile. Oh BTW there isnt only ONE benzomorphan, just one not banned and available under that countries law.

Regarding the bolded bit - I'm not seeing a SHRED of evidence that this is true. Tramadol is comprehensively not included in any of these categories in every single resource I've looked at (and I've gone way past your maligned Wikipedia by now).

You personally might simplify it to a benzomorphan, but you seem to be the only alleged medical professional in the world to do so.

knew this was going to happen lol, just for the record I didnt say it was wrong to call it a synthetic opioid (a benzomorphan is a type of opioid anyways), I said:

I didn't say you did - I simply disagreed with you classifying it as a benzomorphan (and I still do, vigorously).

Im not conceding the point

I suspect you are incapable of doing so, to be honest.

but I cant explain it any futher without drawing many structures here and im not going to go through the synthesis of morphine to the modification forming codiene to the analogue forming benzomorphans and the derivative creating tramadol, that level of detail is too much work. Each line goes to a host of different drugs, opioids on their own is a 6 month long chemistry class just to understand the chemistry and workings, then another 6 months to study their pharmacology.

'It's too complex for a mere uneducated peon like yourself to possibly understand', in other words.

Ya, ya - Heard that one before.

 

[zeridine]

Secondly tramadol is a benzomorphan and is a moderate to strong painkiller.

There is no evidence because its a synthetic miscellaneous compound... The SAMF defines is under the benzomorphans and I agree with the SAMF

lol. again as posted by nerfherder, just fwiw, the SAMF also says tramadol isnt a benzomorphan - only pentazocine is.

 

[copacetic]

lol. again as posted by nerfherder, just fwiw, the SAMF also says tramadol isnt a benzomorphan - only pentazocine is.

You've got the outdated version, right? Right?