Trouble acheiving Ketosis in Recipes

[SoulTax]

So I thought we could start a thread that is all about how to modify a recipe of your choosing into a Keto recipe. I will admit that in many ways I am lacking here by quite a bit. I am pretty decent at making food taste good, and mixing different flavours. I lack in the "diversity of ingredients" arena though.

So here is one of the many recipes that I find trouble with:
I make some nice meatballs. I use the highest fat beef mince that I can find 25% or so. I will experiment with beef+pork mince mixtures soon. I add some Hard cheese, like Parmesan, to the egg mixture used for binding the meat. I fry them in loads of butter. I make a creamy cheese sauce and usually accompany the meal with some veggies of some kind.

The problem is that this meal comes out with a high protein content, a fairly high fat content and hardly any Carbs. How do I reduce that protein content while increasing the fat content, without making the meal a creamy cheese sauce soup?

 

[justplain]

Isnt cutting out carbs the primary concern. The protein and fat content shouldn't be a problem.
The higher the protein content vs other macro nutrients the quicker you'll kick off Ketosis...as long as the carbs are kept to a minimum.
I take it you are trying to lose some unwanted winter layers ?

 

[SoulTax]

Isnt cutting out carbs the primary concern. The protein and fat content shouldn't be a problem.
The higher the protein content vs other macro nutrients the quicker you'll kick off Ketosis...as long as the carbs are kept to a minimum.
I take it you are trying to lose some unwanted winter layers ?

Not really, I am at a weight where Ketosis will not really assist in weight loss. I just want to kick my carb/sugar/refined mass produced, heavily processed foods, habit.

Part of the reading that i did, has said that high protein diets can work your kidneys quite a bit. So the idea is to replace the carbs with fats, but as carb content of things like rice/potatoes/pastas are very high per gram, I find it hard to replace that weight with fat... as the only "Fatty" foods that can compete with those high carb fillers on a 1:1 gram ratio would be things like:
Straight up oils, Coconut, olive, etc.... Perhaps double cream.
But what am I supposed to do, plate 100 grams worth of coconut oil?

 

[Sinbad]

You guys are worrying too much about protein. Seriously.

I lost 25kg in 7 months following Atkins in 2001/2. I didn't weigh ANYTHING, I didn't keep track of ANYTHING except carbs.

When I did track stuff, it turned out that about 70% of my caloric intake was fat and 25% protein.
If you convert that weight-wise, it turns out that the weight of fat that I ate was somewhere along the lines of 1.2 times the weight of protein (fat=9000Cal/kg, protein=4000Cal/kg)

 

[DJ...]

You guys are worrying too much about protein. Seriously.

I lost 25kg in 7 months following Atkins in 2001/2. I didn't weigh ANYTHING, I didn't keep track of ANYTHING except carbs.

When I did track stuff, it turned out that about 70% of my caloric intake was fat and 25% protein.
If you convert that weight-wise, it turns out that the weight of fat that I ate was somewhere along the lines of 1.2 times the weight of protein (fat=9000Cal/kg, protein=4000Cal/kg)

Yes, you'll lose weight, but the goal for the OP is to achieve ketosis, and keeping protein down is a distinct requirement for that. Protein is glucogenic so your body will simply not achieve ketosis eating too much of it. Lose weight? Yes. Ketosis? No...

 

[DJ...]

So I thought we could start a thread that is all about how to modify a recipe of your choosing into a Keto recipe. I will admit that in many ways I am lacking here by quite a bit. I am pretty decent at making food taste good, and mixing different flavours. I lack in the "diversity of ingredients" arena though.

So here is one of the many recipes that I find trouble with:
I make some nice meatballs. I use the highest fat beef mince that I can find 25% or so. I will experiment with beef+pork mince mixtures soon. I add some Hard cheese, like Parmesan, to the egg mixture used for binding the meat. I fry them in loads of butter. I make a creamy cheese sauce and usually accompany the meal with some veggies of some kind.

The problem is that this meal comes out with a high protein content, a fairly high fat content and hardly any Carbs. How do I reduce that protein content while increasing the fat content, without making the meal a creamy cheese sauce soup?

Add a knob of herbed butter inside each meatball and fry in butter as well. Make your sauce with cream. Chuck it in a blender afterwards and emulsify some olive oil into it as well. You could also add eggs yolk slowly using the custard method to incorporate some more fat into the sauce. And pork is typically lower in fat than beef mince. Rather get some bacon in there.

But remember that it is the ratio that's important. So up the veg and lower the number of meatballs you eat...

 

[SoulTax]

Yes, you'll lose weight, but the goal for the OP is to achieve ketosis, and keeping protein down is a distinct requirement for that. Protein is glucogenic so your body will simply not achieve ketosis eating too much of it. Lose weight? Yes. Ketosis? No...

Ye DJ is on the right track. As far as I know, the glucogenic conversion (consumption) of protein is handled in some way by the kidneys, either front end process or byproduct process. So they take more strain if you don't keep the protein levels down. As my wife is currently being treated for Kidney Stones, I would like to make sure that our diet is as easy on the kidneys as possible.

Also lower protein to achieve true ketosis obviously.

 

[Sinbad]

Yes, you'll lose weight, but the goal for the OP is to achieve ketosis, and keeping protein down is a distinct requirement for that. Protein is glucogenic so your body will simply not achieve ketosis eating too much of it. Lose weight? Yes. Ketosis? No...

DUde, to knock yourself out of ketosis by eating too much protein, you'll need to eat LOADS of it. Tons. And not much else. Also, it's a very individual thing.

I promise you the whole time I was losing weight - 7 months - eating plenty of protein, I was peeing purple on the stix.

To quote from Dr Atkins:

"Eat liberally of fish, meat, or fowl". That doesn't imply ANY kind of protein restrictions.

Gluconeogenesis happens on an AS NEEDED basis - ie, if your body doesn't get enough energy from other sources. As long as you're eating fat, your body won't be making any more glucose from protein than it absolutely needs for functions that cannot be powered by ketones.

 

[SoulTax]

Add a knob of herbed butter inside each meatball and fry in butter as well. Make your sauce with cream. Chuck it in a blender afterwards and emulsify some olive oil into it as well. You could also add eggs yolk slowly using the custard method to incorporate some more fat into the sauce. And pork is typically lower in fat than beef mince. Rather get some bacon in there.

But remember that it is the ratio that's important. So up the veg and lower the number of meatballs you eat...

Thanks for the tip. Butter inside is a cool idea. I will try to add olive oil to my sauces then. Do you simply take the sauce, once finished, and spin it in a blender while pouring a little oil in?

I will up the veg a little more and lower the meat intake on meals then. Guess I will start looking at an assortment of fatty sauces that I can make, that will go with different types of meals.

 

[Sinbad]

Oh and something else to bear in mind... You won't go into ketosis from one meal. Or even 3.
You first need to deplete all your glycogen stores, which can take up to 3 days. 3 days of feeling like hell.
Only once those are depleted completely will your body kick into ketosis - and one carby meal will kick you right out again, until you deplete ALL the glycogen you synthesised from that meal.

 

[RanzB]

I make some nice meatballs. I use the highest fat beef mince that I can find 25% or so.

I get my butcher to make my mince separately. High fat beef mince and pork fat. The flavour is amazing.

 

[SoulTax]

Edit: Refering to sinbad's post here: ^ ye that much I know. I have a pretty good grasp on what is required to achieve ketosis and what it actually is. I am just having trouble executing it in meals.

 

[RanzB]

Edit: Refering to sinbad's post here: ^ ye that much I know. I have a pretty good grasp on what is required to achieve ketosis and what it actually is. I am just having trouble executing it in meals.

Personally I'm with Sinbad, but I do know it can be a very person-by-person thing, so I understand wanting to get the ratios right.-

 

[SoulTax]

I get my butcher to make my mince separately. High fat beef mince and pork fat. The flavour is amazing.

This I will try, I need to find a good local butcher that can do this for me.

 

[DJ...]

DUde, to knock yourself out of ketosis by eating too much protein, you'll need to eat LOADS of it. Tons. And not much else. Also, it's a very individual thing.

You'd have to get there to begin with, and the science I've read, specifically here paints a very different picture to the body only using it when absolutely necessary. I understand SoulTax as saying that he's not reached ketosis yet, hence the need to keep protein to a minimum.

You're getting results on a low-carb diet and that's great for you. OP is specifically referring to ketogenic principles. One of which is the 4:1 ratio which involved limiting protein intake...

 

[DJ...]

Thanks for the tip. Butter inside is a cool idea. I will try to add olive oil to my sauces then. Do you simply take the sauce, once finished, and spin it in a blender while pouring a little oil in?

I will up the veg a little more and lower the meat intake on meals then. Guess I will start looking at an assortment of fatty sauces that I can make, that will go with different types of meals.

I posted ideas in the weight-loss thread already, but yes, fatty sauces. If you want to ensure that the sauce emulsion remains stable, then add mustard to the sauce to allow for a proper emulsification process. Or look at things like xanthan gum, but they have a distinct mouthfeel that's difficult to get away from...

 

[OMB]

some more on Nutritional Ketosis from Peter Attia

The “rule of thumb” for NK is that caloric intake is determined as follows (this excludes a subset of ketogenic diets known as calorie-restricted KD which, as the name suggests, is specifically restricted in calories):

Carbohydrate (total, not “net”): less than 50 gm/day, but ideally closer to 30 gm/day
Protein: up to 1 to 1.5 gm/kg, but ideally below about 120 gm/day
Fat: to satiety

the rest of the article makes for an interesting read

source

 

[DJ...]

Edit: Refering to sinbad's post here: ^ ye that much I know. I have a pretty good grasp on what is required to achieve ketosis and what it actually is. I am just having trouble executing it in meals.

As am I, which is why I'm tracking it with my excel app and posting in the weight-loss thread. It's difficult without drinking a pint of oil. So as I refine my processes and recipes I'll keep you updated. I'm aiming for 4:1. YOu can aim for lower, but I'm personally going for the real deal here.

I'm on day two and feeling fine. No adverse side-effects to speak of yet...

 

[SoulTax]

Ye Atkins and Keto are similar in that they restrict Carbs, but they are not the same thing. Atkins was more a low carb... high protein diet. Where keto is a low carb high fat diet. Atkins was on to something of course, that carbs are the true culprits of our obese society, but high protein diets put far more strain on your body than high fat diets do.

 

[DJ...]

some more on Nutritional Ketosis from Peter Attia



the rest of the article makes for an interesting read

source

He is absolutely brilliant when it comes to ketogenic principles and the science thereof. I've been mentally devouring his work since I found it. Requires some basic grasp of science and biology to fully appreciate and I've at times had to go googling thing, but that's what learning is all about...