Uncapped ADSL quality concerns from ISPs

AlmightyBender said:
Openweb have introduced a new product that matches the higher contention ratio's offered by Axxess and Telkom. However they are keeping other existing products in place. So giving consumers the choice I guess.
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OpenWeb is full of crap. Regardless of their low contention and other stuff they advertise, their product doesn't perform any better than any of the other ones available.
 
Paul Hjul said:
the only cause of the squeeze which the ISPs are feeling is that there is an expectation from the user base that line speed

By bundling uncapped product offerings with wholesale line rentals ISPs have created a risk for themselves which has no actual basis. The differentiation by Telkom on ADSL access on a "line speed" basis only serves as a means to lower a barrier to entry on lower end products and to ensure a 1:20 contention ratio on DSLAMs it is at this point entirely unnecessary and the ISPs should actually be arguing that Telkom Wholesale should offer only 1 price for ADSL and another for VDSL with the ISP determining the speed at which the account runs. However because ISPs have built an expectation that they will offer connectivity at line speed which is not the international norm.
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That is pretty much the point - this is the last mile pricing that is changing, nothing more. Us as users are just hoping for a freebie, it is actually good to get the general perception of how ADSL works to be better understood. By that the separation of areas from last mile, national/regional backhaul to IPC and then the national/internal where the ISP rules.

I think the ISPs are moaning at Telkom ISP offering very low uncapped pricing which they can't compete with, they are wondering how this is possible without some sort of cross subsidy. A fair point, it is worth looking in to. Alternatively they have a large user base of old biddies who buy uncapped accounts, but use virtually no data.
 
I am on TI and they really give good service... Can't wait till monday for my 4meg, and I really think other ISP's are blind, because telkom isn't doing it for free... I am going to pay R89 more p/m, but for double the speed, so I really don't mind the extra cost.
 
i did notice a speed increase last night when dl some youtube vids from av of 150KB to 230KB not a lot but it's faster.....
are they also upgrading 2 to 4?
 
ThinkCentre said:
Is this behavior Noncompetitive and could see people going to court because the wholesale is not going down with this price reduction from Telkom?
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Depending on several factors the conduct could be uncompetitive in the framework of South African competition law BUT the case for uncompetitive behaviour simply hasn't been made and there isn't evidence of that right now - on the contrary to move is in my mind pro-competition. Because at its heart it is simply a big ISP dropping its prices - so it is nothing more than when MWEB launched uncapped.

A few of the facts at play:
Telkom is the sole owner and network operator in the ADSL "last mile" there are regulatory impediments to other operators building a last mile ADSL network but costs are prohibitive. The ECA requires that essential facilities be available for leasing and last mile copper is an essential facility; however between Telkom and ICASA LLU has remained a non-feature of the market. LLU through facilities leasing would create the opportunity for additional network operators of an ADSL last mile but will require such operators to invest in non-facility infrastructure.

Telkom's "last mile" connects (in essence at an ESR) into a single national backhaul network operated by Telkom which ISPs connect to using the IPConnect product from Telkom. In effect (if not always in practice) this means that the combination of analogue line rental and DSL service rental provides connectivity between the customers premises and the ESR at which the traffic enters into the Telkom backhaul network whilst the IPConnect product pays for the carriage along that network to the ISPs network. There are many compelling arguments that IPConnect is overpriced but there are two compelling problems with mandating a price reduction: [1] IPConnect pricing incorporates national backhaul as an extensive and expensive fibre network on which a return of investment for the utility provider is required; [2] the construction of an alternative "middle" is a better option with the market determining pricing. -- This is why I strongly advocate that a proper sit down and contractual arrangement to see IPConnect capacity increases with ISPs having capacity at additional sites around the country [they will need to lease capacity on a national fibre network which is a competitive market and where Telkom is a player], the particular arrangement I have in mind is an agreement not to reduce IPConnect spend for 5 years with a 5% increase in IPConnect in a manner and location suitable to Telkom's engineering and technical requirements every 6 months. (So as soon as 3/4s of current purchasing of IPConnect sign up Telkom commences with planning to provide 5% of everybody's IPC and chooses locations to do so which should see networks with 1 IPC spot getting a 2nd those with 2 a 3rd and those with 3 a 4th)

Telkom Internet purchase IPC at exactly the same rates as other ISPs and apart from any preferential treatment which SAIX (a wholesale provider that is part of Telkom) the backhaul network for ADSL purposes is a wholesale operation. It should operate on a cost plus reasonable rate of return basis (as a utility) and I suspect that it actually does, except that a lot of inefficiency costs are probably built in. Telkom Internet has suggested that IPC is not their biggest cost but rather international connectivity which other ISPs claim not to be the case. It is probable that TI has inherited stupidities and inefficiencies and is making the most of the structure it finds itself with.

Now I understand the fears that Telkom could run retail at a loss and profiteer on the utility arm but this requires a monopolistic and abusive approach to the market which simply cannot work and which will be easily discovered. It is far more probable that the pressure will be on the utility business to allow retail to work which would mean pressure to lower various wholesale prices which in light of the ECA will mean that all ISPs will enjoy the same pricing. Several good faith things could guarantee Telkom's case - including (i) Telkom Internet signing up for the agreement I've proposed (my math is that if TI, MWEB and one other big IPC customer are on board it would be viable); (ii) TI and Telkom generally joining ISPA; (iii) Telkom undertaking that TI will not run at a loss in 3 or more financial years, (iv) Telkom Wholesale introducing a "naked line" lease product which is a 2 year contract lease and covers a copper line between an exchange point and customer premises, an ISP may "plug" the line into the Telkom network which would entail it being offloaded through IPConnect or install and/or lease (and lease facilities to make the installation) their own terminating equipment and backhaul.
 
akescpt said:
if money is an issue then the obvious choice will be to jump to telkom. that 4mb uncapped price might be unbeatable. question will be what will the quality be like.
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Trust me, you don't want to have Telkom as your ISP. A friend of ours has them as an ISP. Youtube is shaped, and forget about torrents, they are blocked tighter than iBurst could ever manage
 
Koosi said:
Trust me, you don't want to have Telkom as your ISP. A friend of ours has them as an ISP. Youtube is shaped, and forget about torrents, they are blocked tighter than iBurst could ever manage
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i dont touch torrents noarmally. if nntp flies then ill be happy. i do most of my downloading 12am-7am as well.
 
I think it's time for capped accounts again. As a current uncapped user on 2mbit line I am one of the users that don't leech like crazy. I am sick of subsidising the selfish idiots that download all the time and cause congestion on the exchanges and backbones. If you want to leech like crazy, go ahead...but you then pay extra for it. I just want fast line speed, but STABLE and good quality (low latency, etc.) Internet.

So my solution to ISPs: bring in REASONABLE capped products again (say like 20GB, 30GB, 40GB, etc.) so as to not go bankrupt yourselves. This brings me to another point: Telkom. They "give" on the one hand (everyone is very happy about the free upgrades to line speed), but they very much "take" on the other hand through what I consider downright criminal tactics, by making it so that their ISP (Telkom Internet) is pretty much by far the best in terms of price since their ISP doesn't have the tremendous IPC costs that all the other ISPs have to endure; this is of course solely a function of their monopoly on the last mile and other existing infrastructures. Sad really, and of course the government doesn't care...they get their shares worth from Telkom; they are just all too happy about the monopoly. Makes me sick.

I don't care if Telkom Internet is the cheapest, I won't support them. I'll still stick with the other ISPs, but like I said, they need to bring back capped...to maintain an acceptable quality of service and still actually be able to exist/make a meagre profit. Also, it's time to make things fair again and have those uber leeches pay more for their leeching instead of being subsidised by us reasonable usage (currently about 15GB to 25GB) per month.
 
phil1982 said:
I think it's time for capped accounts again. As a current uncapped user on 2mbit line I am one of the users that don't leech like crazy. I am sick of subsidising the selfish idiots that download all the time and cause congestion on the exchanges and backbones. If you want to leech like crazy, go ahead...but you then pay extra for it. I just want fast line speed, but STABLE and good quality (low latency, etc.) Internet.

So my solution to ISPs: bring in REASONABLE capped products again (say like 20GB, 30GB, 40GB, etc.) so as to not go bankrupt yourselves.
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I agree with capped accounts but at much higher levels, e.g. 10, 50, 100, 200, etc.

This brings me to another point: Telkom. They "give" on the one hand (everyone is very happy about the free upgrades to line speed), but they very much "take" on the other hand through what I consider downright criminal tactics, by making it so that their ISP (Telkom Internet) is pretty much by far the best in terms of price since their ISP doesn't have the tremendous IPC costs that all the other ISPs have to endure; this is of course solely a function of their monopoly on the last mile and other existing infrastructures. Sad really, and of course the government doesn't care...they get their shares worth from Telkom; they are just all too happy about the monopoly. Makes me sick.

I don't care if Telkom Internet is the cheapest, I won't support them. I'll still stick with the other ISPs, but like I said, they need to bring back capped...to maintain an acceptable quality of service and still actually be able to exist/make a meagre profit. Also, it's time to make things fair again and have those uber leeches pay more for their leeching instead of being subsidised by us reasonable usage (currently about 15GB to 25GB) per month.
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Read Paul's post about IPC cost.
 
Well isn’t this what all the ISP were moaning about? - Telkom is holding us/country back from progressing in the IT market….bla bla bla….3rd world….telecoms…

Now Telkom is upgrading their ADSL services and this is also unhealthy………. For you YEA!!

TELKOM: Well Done!!
 
Overall I'm happy with the service levels I'm getting from TI, haven't really seen any shaping to be honest (Currently 4 Mbps uncapped).

I'm wondering though, how long till I see higher speeds? According to Telkom's website I'm already upgraded to 10Mb, but I'm still getting 4 Mb speeds... Funny enough it says my area doesn't have 10Mbps capability, although I was previously on 10Mbps on this exact line (an I got 900KBps+ most of the time). The line was capped though, downgraded to 4Mbps but uncapped. The difference in speed is actually quite noticeable, that's why I can't wait till I'm on 10Mbps again...

But anyway, I guess I'll just have to wait.
 
Oh grief... this is the whole 'exchange rate is up - that's terrible news for consumers' vs 'exchange rate is down - that's terrible news for exporters'. Some people can only see it as half full.

Sure the service levels will drop as the hoarders download the internet to their array of 3Tb drives in their garages just in case the internet isn't around after our next election... but perhaps in a little while consumer pressure will cause ISP's to buy more bandwidth. You can't have progress without dropping prices and upping speeds... and perhaps... just perhaps... people will realise that you can only watch one or two shows a day.
 
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phil1982 said:
I think it's time for capped accounts again. As a current uncapped user on 2mbit line I am one of the users that don't leech like crazy. I am sick of subsidising the selfish idiots that download all the time and cause congestion on the exchanges and backbones. If you want to leech like crazy, go ahead...but you then pay extra for it. I just want fast line speed, but STABLE and good quality (low latency, etc.) Internet.

So my solution to ISPs: bring in REASONABLE capped products again (say like 20GB, 30GB, 40GB, etc.) so as to not go bankrupt yourselves. This brings me to another point: Telkom. They "give" on the one hand (everyone is very happy about the free upgrades to line speed), but they very much "take" on the other hand through what I consider downright criminal tactics, by making it so that their ISP (Telkom Internet) is pretty much by far the best in terms of price since their ISP doesn't have the tremendous IPC costs that all the other ISPs have to endure; this is of course solely a function of their monopoly on the last mile and other existing infrastructures. Sad really, and of course the government doesn't care...they get their shares worth from Telkom; they are just all too happy about the monopoly. Makes me sick.

I don't care if Telkom Internet is the cheapest, I won't support them. I'll still stick with the other ISPs, but like I said, they need to bring back capped...to maintain an acceptable quality of service and still actually be able to exist/make a meagre profit. Also, it's time to make things fair again and have those uber leeches pay more for their leeching instead of being subsidised by us reasonable usage (currently about 15GB to 25GB) per month.
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Cool... how much is 400Gb then?
 
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